Attacks and Duels

[sharpobjects]

I erroneously hijacked another thread with these questions so I started a new one.

When looking at models abilities that can alter an attack such as Yin's Mass Viscera please tell me if the following is true;

A defender receives negative twist on all Wp Duels = Opposed Duels such as gamble your life and Simple Duel.

When declared the target of a Duel = Opposed Duels such as gamble your life.

Wp>Df Duel = Opposed Duel

Wp Resist Duel = resisting a spell with the Wp stat

Resist Flips = resisting a spell with any stat

Resist Duels = resisting a spell with any stat

Wp and Ca Resist Flips = resisting a spell with the wp stat and any other stat

If an attacker successfully hits this model = attacks from all sources listed on RM page 18

When defending in a Duel = Opposed Duel

Losing a Wp Duel = losing an Opposed Duel or Simple Duel

Wp Duel = Opposed Duel and Simple Duel

All Wp Duels = Simple and Opposed Duels

These are snipits from about a dozen models in the game that have an ability to alter an Attack. I just want to clarify once and for all if I understand each instance correctly.

Thanks

[nix]

Keep in mind that in the other thread both Ratty and Keltheos have responded with some clarification on Yin's specific Mass of Viscera ability.

I do recognize that you have a wider set of questions, so let me see if I can help.

*grin*

• A defender receives negative twist on all Wp Duels = Opposed Duels such as gamble your life and Simple Duel.
  
  • on all WP duels is all duels where the affected model uses its WP stat.
    

  [*]When declared the target of a Duel = Opposed Duels such as gamble your life.

  • Not sure exactly what your asking here. Yes, GYL is an opposed duel.
    

  [*]Wp>Df Duel = Opposed Duel

  • Yes, this is an opposed duel.
    

  [*]Wp Resist Duel = resisting a spell with the Wp stat

  • Yup, this is correct
    

  [*]Resist Flips = resisting a spell with any stat

  • You got it so far
    

  [*]Resist Duels = resisting a spell with any stat

  • Your still on the right track
    

  [*]Wp and Ca Resist Flips = resisting a spell with the wp stat and any other stat

  • Specifically in this situation its a flip to resist a spell that targets either WP or CA. But Resist flips are as detailed above.
    

  [*]If an attacker successfully hits this model = attacks from all sources listed on RM page 18

  • I might be off on this one, but I have only seen "Hit" used in relation to Strikes as far as I can remember. Could you point me to where you quoted this from?
    

  [*]When defending in a Duel = Opposed Duel

  • Not exactly. You could be the Defender in a simple duel if it is a Resist duel. Resist Duels are simple duels where the target number is set by the cast of an attacking model.
    

  [*]Losing a Wp Duel = losing an Opposed Duel or Simple Duel

  • Specifically for your example, losing any duel (simple or opposed) where the model uses its WP stat.
    

  [*]Wp Duel = Opposed Duel and Simple Duel

  • correct, as long as its using the WP stat.
    

  [*]All Wp Duels = Simple and Opposed Duels

  • Corecto.... same as the last answer.
    

Hope that helps out.

*grin*

[amor sanguinis]

My meta was talking about this Sat. All we had was book 1.5 as far as a rulebook that day

but the question came up about Immune to influence. Arg... I had such a hard time defining Wp duel in the 1.5 book. Duels are only classified as simple or opposed. The 2am conversation almost made my brain bleed.

[Setoth]

I've had a similar discussion before with someone I played. We only have the first original run of the rulebook to go by and were trying to figure out if Immune to Influence made you immune to simple Willpower Duels since it specified "when defending in a duel."

[Envy]

The 2am conversation almost made my brain bleed.

Well that's what happens when your all hopped up on soda at 2am..................your brain bleeds :1_Exhausted_Puppet:

[Fetid Strumpet]

Immune to influence only makes you exempt when you are the defender. A simple duel, like Harmless requires, is not such a duel. Therefore, for example, an Immune to influence model, like Izamu, will still have to check against a model who is Harmless.

[Envy]

So would Immune to Influence only kick in on spells that have a Wp resist then?

[Sarsnick]

So would Immune to Influence only kick in on spells that have a Wp resist then?

There are other checks that have you using Wp as the defense. Like a Wp->Wp duel for some schemes and Stitched's Gamble Your Life.

[Setoth]

Edit: This was supposed to be aimed at Fetid Strumpet but I clicked on the wrong quote thingy.

What about an action like Last Words from the Hanged?

Edited January 16, 2013 by Setoth

[Envy]

There are other checks that have you using Wp as the defense. Like a Wp->Wp duel for some schemes and Stitched's Gamble Your Life.

Right but isn't that a spell? I could be way way WAY over thinking this and I do appoligize lol

[Keltheos]

A spell with RST: WP would be a WP duel for the target of the spell (the defender)...

[nix]

Right but isn't that a spell? I could be way way WAY over thinking this and I do appoligize lol

GYL is an action, not a spell. It still has an Attacker and Defender, and I2I would kick in for the defender.

In addition, the Scheme Steal Relic forces an opposed WP duel between one of your models and your opponents master. This is not a spell, but in this duel the opponents Master is a defender.

[Ratty]

Are you taking part in a duel, are you using the Wp stat...

then you are taking a Wp Duel

[Therril_83]

Immune to Influence makes you immune to Wp-duels when you are a defender (RM pg116).

There are only defenders in Opposed Duels and in Resist Duels.

So, if your model is attacked in any way by another model, and it is defending itself using Wp (it could be a spell with Wp-resist, or Gamble Your Life, or an attack similar to Insidious Madness that can choose to attack Cb->Wp), it is immune and the attack will automatically fail.

That is the only time ItI has effect. It will not save the model from Terrifying (Terrifying forces a simple duel, and simple duels have no defender), nor will it make you immune to things like Irresistable, Harmless or Pitiful (also simple duels).

Where I'm not myself totally sure what the rules say, is things like Pandora's Expose Fears. It forces a Wp->Wp duel to target Pandora. It is not totally clear here which model is attacker and which is defender, but I like to argue that it's the model targeting Pandora that causes the duel to happen, and is therefore the attacker in the duel. There is also the argument about the acting model being the attacker.

If I've missed something regarding this and it is explained in the rules, please correct me and if possible give me a page reference.

Edited January 17, 2013 by DaemonChild
realised I was wrong about what pitiful does. It is indeed an opposed duel and not a simple duel.

[Boshea]

Expose Fears is exactly like Pitiful, except it doesn't end after Pandora activates for the round.

[Cunning]

I believe for expose fears that Pandora is the defender.

If in doubt the active model is usually the attacker in duels. There may be instances where this is not the case but I cant think of any off hand.

[Soul Puppet]

Unless attacking Pandora from more than 12" away it's a moot point anyway due to 'The Box Opens'.

[Therril_83]

Unless attacking Pandora from more than 12" away it's a moot point anyway due to 'The Box Opens'.

Yes, more from a "for the sake of argument" thing

[sharpobjects]

[*]If an attacker successfully hits this model = attacks from all sources listed on RM page 18

• I might be off on this one, but I have only seen "Hit" used in relation to Strikes as far as I can remember. Could you point me to where you quoted this from?
  

[*]When defending in a Duel = Opposed Duel

[*]Not exactly. You could be the Defender in a simple duel if it is a Resist duel. Resist Duels are simple duels where the target number is set by the cast of an attacking model.

Thank you very much Nix for responding in detail. I have just two follow-up questions from the list.

The first one from the above list is a defensive trigger of the Hodge Podge Effigy "It Wont Stand Still". If an attacker successfully hits this model, the attacker must discard one Control Card or suffer 1 Wd or the attack misses. So is this indeed from a Strike only hit or in other words a Strike from a weapon only?

The second one from the list is in reference to the standard Stubborn ability; This model receives +2 Wp when defending in a Duel. So the model receives the +2 when defending in an Opposed Duel and Resist Duel when resisting/defending with the Wp Stat?

I just wanted to be clear on these last two questions. Thanks again.

[DeusInnomen]

The first one from the above list is a defensive trigger of the Hodge Podge Effigy "It Wont Stand Still". If an attacker successfully hits this model, the attacker must discard one Control Card or suffer 1 Wd or the attack misses. So is this indeed from a Strike only hit or in other words a Strike from a weapon only?

For this one, the Rules Manual explicitly defines an attacker on page 18 as the initiator of an Attack, which includes "melee attacks, ranged attacks, spell with or in their Rg, spells that require a Resist Duel, Strikes with melee/ranged weapons and actions that inflict Dg or Wd on another model, or require an Opposed Duel." So, pretty nearly any time you interact with an enemy model.

The second one from the list is in reference to the standard Stubborn ability; This model receives +2 Wp when defending in a Duel. So the model receives the +2 when defending in an Opposed Duel and Resist Duel when resisting/defending with the Wp Stat?

Correct.

[nix]

DeusInnomen beat me to it and his answers are spot on.

On the Hodgepodge, I can see where the wording is a bit confusing. As I understand, the intention of that ability would be equally met with this wording (if it helps):

After a successful attack targeting this model, the attacker must discard one Control Card or suffer 1 Wd or the attack misses.