Please Discuss Hamelin Errata HERE

[Keltheos]

Please discuss the Hamelin errata posted in: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?37795-HAMELIN-ERRATA-(OR-maybe-the-world-is-ending-after-all) here.

[Ratty]

Also noticed that the Rat Catchers have picked up Affinity: Hamelin the Plagued which would be superfluous with Hamelin's Proxy so hoping that it is replacing it (and just an oversite in the hast to get this published). I really think this could make the Malifaux Rats viable for Som'er crews and produce some rather neat combinations (I am most excited about this possibility). Now to wait for confirmation or disappointment.

It needs Affinity as it is no longer insignificant so couldn't normally be hired by Hamelin

[Bellyflop]

Yes it does and I am so thankful for that. Now to see how these changes are going to interact with the Hog Boss (will Rats be a bit more viable an option).

Correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure you can still use rats to spawn mosquitoes. The mosquito ability just requires you to sacrifice a model, not reduce it to 0 Wd's. "They're just rats" only seems to prevent the rats attacking themselves and kills off the Hamelin terror tot list.

If "They're just rats" prevents the rats from being sacrificed then the only models Hamelin can sacrifice for Understand the Soulless are The Stolen.

[Omenbringer]

e Affinity is because the are not soulless, Ht1 or Insignificant.

Without it they can only be hired by The Plagued (Hamelin Proxy) but they couldn't be hired by him...

Damn so he may still not be summonable outside of Hamelin's crew (still hoping).

By the way I edited the above post since the Rat ability wont stop the Larva shenanigans after all. (though you all beat me to it)

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------

Correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure you can still use rats to spawn mosquitoes. The mosquito ability just requires you to sacrifice a model, not reduce it to 0 Wd's. "They're just rats" only seems to prevent the rats attacking themselves and kills off the Hamelin terror tot list.

Yep caught that after I had hit the submit reply button (to excited I guess).

---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

It needs Affinity as it is no longer insignificant so couldn't normally be hired by Hamelin

So still not summonable outside of Hamelin the Plagued crews, that sucks...(so rats are still primarily skeeter Larva targets with Som'er, that really sucks!) Is this open to discusion?

Edited December 21, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Dumb Luck]

I fail to see a problem with Larva on Rats. Sure, it's nasty but if they're going to come into play on three wounds, then why not just as three wounds as standard? I know Som'er could heal them but I'm not wasting AP on that.

[Omenbringer]

I fail to see a problem with Larva on Rats. Sure, it's nasty but if they're going to come into play on three wounds, then why not just as three wounds as standard? I know Som'er could heal them but I'm not wasting AP on that.

This is the problem. By hiring the Rats just to Larva them into Skeeters you get guarantied free healing for most of them (only the last one doesn't heal) that doesn't cost you anything (other than the hiring) and adds to out activation. There is literally no other reason to take Rats with Som'er (breaking that loop hole would prevent several turns of reduced control hands with no resist). Adding the ability to summon Rat Catchers could introduce some viability to hiring Rats with Som'er.

[FearLord]

Changes look pretty good to me - there was really no reason for Bully + Insignificant to completely shut down attacks against Hamelin, when having to get a decent Wp duel first is still a powerful ability, and the change to Nihilism means that you need to be a bit more aggressive with Hamelin himself to achieve objectives (although I do think that certain Strategies are going to be much more challenging for a "standard" Hamelin build)...

Not sure Fate is meaningless needed to be cuddled quite like that - it was a powerful ability, but he is a Master...

Obviously the biggest changes were to Rats, who have gone back to the drawing board to some extent - ultimately, I think they struck a pretty good balance with them, maintaining the tide of rats feel to the crew, without allowing the mechanic to be abused for stupidly long and complicated activations. Rat Catchers removing slow instead of slaughtering them also works quite well. It still means that Rats (with support) are dangerous to kill and can create a bigger swarm as models die around them, but makes them act more like a 2 ss model...

[Ausplosions]

This is the problem. By hiring the Rats just to Larva them into Skeeters you get guarantied free healing for most of them (only the last one doesn't heal) that doesn't cost you anything (other than the hiring) and adds to out activation. There is literally no other reason to take Rats with Som'er (breaking that loop hole would prevent several turns of reduced control hands with no resist). Adding the ability to summon Rat Catchers could introduce some viability to hiring Rats with Som'er.

Sounds like a pretty good deal for 2ss. And yet you also want a rat catcher? Which can give Vermin +to Dg?

By the sound of it, Rats are already a very viable choice for Som'er.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Ausplosions

[Dumb Luck]

But the crew is all about out activation anyway. One Rat is not going to tip the scale too much further. And as for hiring them for the healing, how else are you meant to be able get the most out of the totems? If they were three wounds basic, then this 'problem' wouldn't be a problem since you wouldn't have to heal them.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Yeah, I kinda like Som'er's Sacrificial Rat, myself.

[Omenbringer]

Sounds like a pretty good deal for 2ss. And yet you also want a rat catcher? Which can give Vermin +to Dg?

By the sound of it, Rats are already a very viable choice for Som'er.

They are only viable for getting around a balancing point on the Skeeters. Getting a Rat Catcher into a Som'er list would force the sacrifice of three Malifaux Rats which is pretty significant of a cost (more than Hamelin pays and would either require the hiring of additional rats for him to buff or a bit to build up a swarm via his Voracious Rats).

But the crew is all about out activation anyway. One Rat is not going to tip the scale too much further. And as for hiring them for the healing, how else are you meant to be able get the most out of the totems? If they were three wounds basic, then this 'problem' wouldn't be a problem since you wouldn't have to heal them.

I would be absolutely fine with them at 3 Wd's but then again what purpose would the rats really serve then (as you could just hire the 4 Skeeters from the start or use Bayou Gremlin for Larva netting 2 Control Cards for each one used for Larva)?

The Rats serve no other purpose than to provide healed Skeeters that can significantly diminish your opponents control hand for 2-4 turns of the game (again with no resist, real cost and with great mobility at a range of 22"). Can this be done without the Malifaux Rats, of course. It does however take Som'er himself to heal them up as the Slop Hauler's cant do it. If Som'er has to do it that means he isn't doing much of anything else for the crew for a while.

I get the allure of this however as I have said there is no other reason to hire the Malifaux Rat other than to make healed Skeeters and that really annoys me. As the old adage goes if you can think of absolutely no reason not to do it, it is probably to good (and unintended).

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 PM ----------

But the crew is all about out activation anyway. One Rat is not going to tip the scale too much further.

One Rat might not but 3 definately can. With thoughtful positioning you can wring up to 7 activations out of three Malifaux Rats and a single Skeeter on the turn you do the Larva chain.

[Ausplosions]

I hire the grave spirit for +armour

I hire the Student of Conflict for Fast

I hire the Zombie Chihuahua for BP

Many models are hired for only one reason...

[Omenbringer]

I hire the grave spirit for +armour

I hire the Student of Conflict for Fast

I hire the Zombie Chihuahua for BP

Many models are hired for only one reason...

These are all balanced by the trade offs. The Grave Spirit has to be alive and in base contact with the beneficiary during the Start Closing Phase. The Student of Conflict has a very high cost for that Fast as well as requiring an (All) action to do (slowing the beneficiary down). And well the Zombie Chihuahua is only a slight savings over just trading soul stones from the pool for body part counters.

The Rats have no trade offfs in this exchange.

[Korrosion]

The Rats have no trade offfs in this exchange.

Not true, I'd have to paint them :-).

[Bellyflop]

Back to Hamelin, removing Slaughter Rats also cuddles avatar Hamelin's Tyrant's Judgement blight bomb. Now you can longer dump all the blight counters you want on your opponents crew unopposed and AE them to death.

I have a few questions about how They're Just Rats works. Rats are considered friendly models during their own activation right, like how Som'er can complete his manifest requirement in the first turn because he can heal himself since he is a friendly model. If a rat with 1 Wd attacks a model with a damage shield, like a Neverborn with black blood, does the rat just not take the damage and end at 1 Wd? Can rats now use writhing mass every activation even with 1 Wd? Also if avatar Hamelin casts Frenzied Piping can rats (now with blight counters) take 1 Wd to get the +1 Dg?

Edited December 22, 2012 by Bellyflop

[Aramoro]

So does They're Just Rats mean you can no longer pay the cost on Writhing Mass when they're down to one wound?

[FearLord]

Models have never been able to use abilities that inflict wounds on themselves if it would reduce them to zero wounds...

[Boshea]

So does They're Just Rats mean you can no longer pay the cost on Writhing Mass when they're down to one wound?

You couldn't do Writhing Mass before the errata, since you can't use a talent/spell that does a fixed number of wounds that would result in death.

Models have never been able to use abilities that inflict wounds on themselves if it would reduce them to zero wounds...

You get the situation now of Suffer one wound to Writhing Mass, and then stay at one wound because of They're Just Rats.

[Ausplosions]

And yes, black blood etc, will not kill any rat in its own activation. Nor will moving into hazardous terrain.

That's the whole idea. Otherwise it's infinite rats again.

As for writhing mass, I'd say yes you can as it won't reduce your wounds to 0 and it's not a spell so it won't "fizzle".

But would be good to get an RM opinion.

[sunabe]

hazardous terrain removes them from game instead as seen below

Add: "They're Just Rats": This model may not be reduced to less than 1 Wd during a friendly model's activation. If this model would be killed while within Hazardous Terrain it is removed from the game.

Edited December 22, 2012 by sunabe

[Seregon]

If hazardous terrain causes the model to be removed from play instead of killed, I would assume the same thing would happen in the case of black blood.

[Kadeton]

These changes are going to take a fair bit of digestion, I think. The overall effect on the way the crew plays probably won't be obvious until we get some actual models on the table and see it in action.

Immediate reactions:

Rats got a bit more powerful, but they obviously get a lot fewer activations. I think the current line of thinking is correct that Writhing Mass could now be performed if the Rat was on 1 Wd (since it couldn't be reduced to 0). Losing Impetuous and Rabies seems rough at first, but "Get them off!" is better and easier to keep track of. The only real downside is not being able to use Impetuous to overcome Nix's Emptiness so that the Rats could cheat while their opponents could not, but that was overpowered. Good changes.

Nix is basically as powerful as ever, and didn't really change much. The Sweet Taste of Failure seems like it should have been this way all along.

Rat-Catchers are now your safety net for capping objectives if Hamelin dies (which is fine, since they were always great at objectives anyway). The change from Slaughter Rats to Herd Rats makes the Rat swarm activation more devastating, but it only happens once - that's a great change.

Indiscriminate Void is now very similar to its original form, except that Hamelin isn't removed from the danger of whatever killed him. This will certainly encourage people to run Hamelin with his Stolen in a tight group - they're going to be even more vulnerable to blasts than before. This also ties in with the new Nihilism, I guess.

Ruffian is still brutal as hell against melee crews, in my opinion - the Rats will probably give you -2 Wp, and if you get Hamelin close to death, the Stolen will start exploding for a further -2 Wp. (And if you don't kill Hamelin, get ready for some Irresistible Lures - you won't be resisting them.) However, it does allow for the possibility of a melee alpha strike, and gives ranged crews a better chance to bring him down. I think this will probably shift Hamelin's tactics into outright killing people rather than spending resources on making them Insignificant. It's interesting that this now affects Pitiful and Harmless models as well.

I'm sad about Fate is Meaningless, because there doesn't seem to be much reason to use it any more. Previously, my main use for it was to hit someone in the face with the Black Staff and be guaranteed to be able to cheat in Severe damage regardless of difference, Hard to Wound, etc. Now that's almost always going to be easier to do with a Focused strike.

I'm really happy overall with the changes at face value. I can't wait to try them out.

---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------

If hazardous terrain causes the model to be removed from play instead of killed, I would assume the same thing would happen in the case of black blood.

Black Blood is not hazardous terrain.

[Ausplosions]

hazardous terrain removes them from game instead as seen below

No no no.

"if this model would be killed"

It is not going to be killed because it can't be reduced to zero wounds.

If hazardous terrain causes the model to be removed from play instead of killed, I would assume the same thing would happen in the case of black blood.

And I have no idea where you got that idea about black blood removing them from...

Edited December 22, 2012 by Ausplosions

[Pigeonsmythe]

These errata are good for a Hamelin crew but totally screw my Kirai nix crew, wyrd clearly focused on the Hamelin crew for the errata, removing the ability to kill a rat totally screws Kirai. (see my experiment thread in rezzer forum) not happy at all. I wouldn't have bought, nix or rats or rami if I knew you were planning to screw over Hamelin's crew models not just him.

[Kadeton]

No no no.

"if this model would be killed"

It is not going to be killed because it can't be reduced to zero wounds.

Yeah, I wondered about this too. It's possible that it only refers to the types of hazardous terrain that would inflict (for example) 2/4/killed on damage, and then only if the "killed" result is flipped.

[Csonti]

I'm sad about Fate is Meaningless, because there doesn't seem to be much reason to use it any more. Previously, my main use for it was to hit someone in the face with the Black Staff and be guaranteed to be able to cheat in Severe damage regardless of difference, Hard to Wound, etc. Now that's almost always going to be easier to do with a Focused strike.

I see it very differently. That was a powerful ability that let Hamelin move and then charge any target with straight flips and an almost guaranteed 9 points of damage. This change takes care of that 5+8+2 threat while there is still much room for that action. For example Focused strike is not a better option against HtW models, even without HtW a draw will yield damage while Fate is Meaningless works just fine in case of ties. Also you can't Focus a Charge, right? I'm very glad about this part of the Errata.