Schism 93 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Simply is it do-able? I have his starter and no-one wants me to use him. Starting without any rats, catchers or stolen seems the obvious start point, but is he too easy then and thus potentially an npe the other way. Here's the options, what are good options for a friendly list without being totally useless? Totems Drill Sergeant Governor's Proxy Grave Spirit Essence of Power Primordial Magic Malifaux Child (Mercenary) Obedient Wretch (Hamelin, the Plagued) Student of Conflict (Mercenary) Guild Minions Brutal Effigy (Special Forces: Doll) Latigo Pistolero Guild Hound Resurrectionist Minions Canine Remains Carrion Effigy (Special Forces: Doll) Crooligan (Special Forces: Horror) Night Terror Arcanist Minions Arcane Effigy (Special Forces: Doll) Hoarcat Pride Moleman Neverborn Minions Alp Baby Kade Candy Gupps Mysterious Effigy (Special Forces: Doll) Sorrow Terror Tot Nephilim Outcast Minions Desperate Mercenary Hodgepodge Effigy (Special Forces: Doll) Malifaux Rat Nix, the Bull Terrier Piglet Rat-Catcher The Stolen Tots seem cool, but hear people still have problems with that build. So to throw a list out there and get the ball rolling Outcasts Crew - 35 - Scrap Hamelin the Plagued -- 5 Pool Obedient Wretch [2ss] Desperate Mercenary [2ss] Canine Remains [2ss] Canine Remains [2ss] Canine Remains [2ss] Canine Remains [2ss] Crooligan [4ss] Crooligan [4ss] Desperate Mercenary [2ss] Desperate Mercenary [2ss] Night Terror [3ss] Night Terror [3ss] The crooligans (I know they aren't well liked, but thematically cool) offer some cover from a set attack angle in opening turns and could possibly get negative WP on enemies. Remains and mercs are cheap fodder, will probably be rats by turn 3 (especially mercs). A weak ranged start to game, but quite a lot of speed in here. Night terrors offer more WP shenanigans (as do remains/rats)as well as non-insignificant models should Hamelin fall (crooligans do too, but less likely to make end game) Nix is missing to give the obvious kill Hamelin to remove Nihilism, meaning if you want rats you play Hamelin up front, which will be risky, but your opponent will find it easier to bite his/her insignificance, when they know how to do it to you too. Any thoughts appreciated, cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelante Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Your doing this wrong. Your doing your group a disservice by trying to play a cuddled Hamelin. They won't have the option to not play against him in a tournament so its better that they get the experience in a friendly environment. You could even play a double game and swap crews so they get the chance to play Hamelin and understand how he works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifonetto Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 If they told him they don't want to play against Hamelin, as he says, they're probably not planning to play at tournament level anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schism 93 Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) They don't want to play in tournaments, so no dis-service done. I'm not saying I will not break out the full on Hamelin experience ever. But the idea that everyone must be competitive is why people are afraid of Hamelin when they have never even seen him in action. This way I get some more cool models, they get a gentler intro into how he works, win-win Edit: Thanks Grifonetto, I don't want a debate on how games should be played(both are good in right circumstances), just advice on how people think a fun beer and pretzels Hamelin crew should look, Edited August 13, 2012 by Schism 93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alviaran Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Your doing this wrong. Your doing your group a disservice by trying to play a cuddled Hamelin. They won't have the option to not play against him in a tournament so its better that they get the experience in a friendly environment. You could even play a double game and swap crews so they get the chance to play Hamelin and understand how he works. I agree. Play the Hamelin they are likely to see, but do as I plan to with my Pandora. I recently got Pandora since one of the achievements for the league was to play each master in the faction. I played her against our Henchman who knew what was coming and I still made McMourning slit his own throat without any trouble. She is a total NPE. I've told me friends, I will not be bringing her out for casual play. She is going to be once a league or when prepping for a tournament. And when we do those, I will not just throw down and play a game normally. No. Pandora is going to be a step by step of us both playing through the whole thing together (as we often do when prepping for major Warmachine events). We aren't playing the game. We are working through it. This is to both familiarize me with my own master but to also teach my friend what to be aware of and try to find what we can do to counter it. Help them. This is the best way to put a NPE on the table and have it actually NOT be negative. You both become better for it. (I retired at least one caster in Warmachine because for casual play, she is too much of a NPE. She hasn't come out in a long while, but at this point my most regular opponent and friend has no problem when he sees her across the table. I figured her out and he learned to fight her. The same for me with his old standby caster who is another widely regarded NPE but one you must be ready for in competitive play) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schism 93 Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 That's a cool way of doing it, jut not for the group in question, I realise you probably started the reply before I responded. Thanks for the responses pixelante and Alviaran, but it isn't what I'm looking for in this situation, however I respect your opinions and agree with you on some level. Ideally I will stumble across a great combo working through this list that will help me when I eventually attend a tourney. So for your minds, consider this situation, please. Are there any other cool toys on this list that will work well with Hammy that don't use his traditional tricks? Thinking in that way you could add constructively to the conversation without doubting my overall aims (which is purely to cater to a different playstyle from what you mention) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Perhaps something like this: Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap Hamelin the Plagued -- 5 Pool Hoarcat Pride [5ss]Hoarcat Pride [5ss]Hoarcat Pride [5ss]Malifaux Rat [2ss]Malifaux Rat [2ss]Malifaux Rat [2ss]Mysterious Effigy [4ss] Sort of a Tom & Jerry themed crew. Without Nix or the Rat Catchers the crew should be a bit more friendly. The Rats are there to sacrifice for Hamelin's abilities (at least until he accumulates enough free The Stolen to fuel his spells later in the game) and the Hoar Cats are there primarily to Devour things (both of which will pervent the summoning of more Rats since they sacrifice things instead of killing them). It would definately be unexpected and should be hilarious to play against. Edited August 13, 2012 by Omenbringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaBreadMen Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Having just picked up a Hamelin bundle myself, I get exactly where you're coming from. My two regular oponents are good friends of mine, and while we do play in local tourney's I don't want to make casual games no fun. So although I will be bringing Hamelin in all his glory to the table now and again, I also wanted to make a more enjoyable crew. I've yet to give it a go, but my initial basic list is: Outcasts Crew - 25 - Scrap Hamelin the Plagued -- 3 Pool Obedient Wretch [2ss] Baby Kade [6ss] Candy [8ss] Sorrow [3ss] Sorrow [3ss] It'll look nice on the baord, with Hamelin surrounded by children, since he'll pop out a Stolen to sac every now and again, plus C&K have synergy with each other, even if not with the big man himself. Like I say, I've not tried it yet, but half the fun for me is to figure out things as I go along. Plus, there's a free Candy and Kade whizzing their way toward me thanks to Evil Baby Orphanage, so I may as well give it a spin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meebs Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I bought Hamelin because I love the pied piper thing, I always love it when fairy tales crop up in places. I then found out he's one of the most moaned about masters. I didn't let this put me off and after a few games found one good way of playing him in a friendly environment is to explain what everything does before you start, and declare intentions far in advance. Not being patronising, just informative - this is an open information game after all. Luckily most of the people I play with enjoy the challenge and do want to play in tourneys and I help them work out what they can do against him with the crews they like to play. Part of playing Hamelin successfully (as in fun) is to be polite and not be a bad sport. I also don't tend to play 'hard' when I use Hamelin. As for alternate lists without defeating the point, try taking only one rat catcher and only 2 or 3 rats. Mix in terror tots and or baby kade + candy. The lists still make sense, still play like Hamelin but cause slightly less aggravation. The trouble I’ve had when using alternate lists is that most of Hamelin’s options are pretty weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I agree. Play the Hamelin they are likely to see, but do as I plan to with my Pandora. I recently got Pandora since one of the achievements for the league was to play each master in the faction. I played her against our Henchman who knew what was coming and I still made McMourning slit his own throat without any trouble. Thats pretty impressive since it is impossible for mcmorning to slit his own throat. He has organ donor. So him hitting himself does no damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroFire Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I've played a very friendly game against a standard Hamelin list. The main thing was my opponent was very up-front about what I should not do, which was waste any time attacking rats while the other stuff on the board was still there to bring them back. He did swarm one of my big melee hitters, but the hilarious part was the rats just ended up scattering before the Terrifying model. I also had Perdita, giving me the best way to lift Hamelin's biggest spells of giving Insignificant and then forcing a model to target only him with attacks when Insignificant models can't actually attack him (a tactic my opponent did not use more than a couple times.) So some of it was having a good crew for it, but I did win the game because he just... didn't play mean. I think they're working on some fixes for Hamelin, though, so maybe just wait until he's not completely broken to run him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) The 'Childs Play' list is definitely the most thematic and entertaining - Iggy, Candy and Kade, Crooligans and Stolen to fill the points. *oops* forgot about Iggy's animosity. Edited August 13, 2012 by Guy in Suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alviaran Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thats pretty impressive since it is impossible for mcmorning to slit his own throat. He has organ donor. So him hitting himself does no damage. Nope. McMourning does it on attacks. Self Loathing does not cause an attack, just a damage flip. Gets around his Organ Donor ability. The 'Childs Play' list is definitely the most thematic and entertaining - Izzy, Candy and Kade, Crooligans and Stolen to fill the points. Izzy? Do you mean Iggy? Because Hamelin is explicitly not allowed to take Iggy. Iggy has Animosity for Hamelin. (Makes sense. He is the embodiment of neglected children. Hamelin is kind of the biggest bully in such a child's world) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Yes, Hamelin pays to hire Iggy - but he is controlled by Hamelin's opponent. (Thematic and entertaining.) Forgot about his animosity. Is there not some other child model I am thinking of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Nope. McMourning does it on attacks. Self Loathing does not cause an attack, just a damage flip. Gets around his Organ Donor ability. here let me clarify: Organ Donor: When this model inflicts Dg with a melee attack, heal it an equal number of Wd. self loathing Select 1 of the target model’s basic melee weapons. Target suffers a Damage Flip with that weapon that receives -. This Damage Flip cannot be Cheated. he is attacking himself with a melee weapon. it is not and Attack flip. it is attack so again he will hurt himself hell even put himself at zero wounds then he heals that many wounds, heck you might even give him free heals. 1wd 6dg look heals 5 wds (pretty sure you can only go to zero not negative) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 The damage flip from self loathing is definitely not a separate attack. The only attack is the cast of Self-Loathing itself. (Weapon-specific effects that occur in addition to damage do NOT occur on self-loathing.) I don't think a Marshall has chimed in on this recently - but as far as I can see Dr. Mac would not get the heal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Nope it's Pandora making the attack with the Weapon Stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 ohhh realllly good to know, now to tell my gaming group who told me that is the way it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schism 93 Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Sort of a Tom & Jerry themed crew. This description alone makes me want to get a load of T&J figurines and run this, Spike is Nix and Hammy represented by torso-less stockinged legs holding the skirt up standing on a stool, awesome. Definitely thinking outside the box, think it will be terrible, but fun as hell to run. No way I'm buying that many prides though! Hamelin the Plagued -- 3 Pool Obedient Wretch [2ss] Baby Kade [6ss] Candy [8ss] Sorrow [3ss] Sorrow [3ss] Was one of my first thoughts too, it seems funky and thematically cool too. Very low model count so his tricks are reduced a lot, for theme though, think Guy in Suit's child's play is cooler. Worry it's too low a model count for 25, will definitely give both those ideas a try, cheers guys. Enjoy your EBO, would be cool to get a Hammy force with all the stolen modelled from the cards I think they're working on some fixes for Hamelin, though, so maybe just wait until he's not completely broken to run him. Personally I don't feel he is completely broken, just people found a one trick pony that the trick is so immense they forgo other options. Also, the wait for fix has been a long one, another reason to find a different style is to avoid learning pre-cuddle(/fix) and then un-learning, that was my main drive toward shelfing him after I won his boxed set. I hope after his fixes are released threads like this one will have generated enough new/alternate ideas for running Hamelin differently that they will be common sights on the board in tourneys as well as friendly play ...I also don't tend to play 'hard' when I use Hamelin... ...The trouble I’ve had when using alternate lists is that most of Hamelin’s options are pretty weak. Think, I'm not good enough at the game to play hard anyways Have to disagree with your assessment of the options available. (ignoring totems and effigies) Okay, the guild don't offer much, but ressers with remains and night terrors are pretty sweet, the crooligans I am also a fan of even aware of their limitations. Arcanists offer molemen who can be super annoying at times. NB are offering Candy, Kade, sorrows and tots, then his own faction has the desperate mercs that are meant to die, so can become rats around third turn if you do it right. So, ignoring his "own" models (rats etc.) I would say Good:Canine Remains, Night Terrors, Kade, Candy, Sorrows, Terror Tots, Desperate Merc (7[2 unique] or 11[3 unique] including Nix, Rats, Catchers and Stolen) Debatable:Crooligan, Molemen, (2) Sub-par:Guild Hound, Pistolero, HC Pride, Alp, Gupps, Piglet (6) Thats a decent selection, Molly players would kill and bring back someone to kill them again for options like that! Right now many players are limiting themselves to a third of their decent options purely due to a wonky mechanic that will at some point be fixed. As for totems/effigies, personally I believe the wretch will virtually always be the right option fluffwise and gamewise, and that is as it should be. Even if I am wrong there, the fact you can only take 1 means it's not fair to skew the crew options analysis too much including them in those lists. Thanks everyone for your input, definitely food for thought. Kinda wish I had called this thread "Alternate Ways to Run Hamelin Crews" would've probably reduced the debate on how to play and focused things more on constructive debate. But I will try a couple of these and see how received they are, then report back and let you all know, let's see if we can find more cool play things to sacrifice/bully Edited August 14, 2012 by Schism 93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireTrollJake Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 It's funny. I get his power level, but my only run ins with Hammy have been with Sommer and I just blow him out be scenario with my speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcXON Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 It's funny. I get his power level, but my only run ins with Hammy have been with Sommer and I just blow him out be scenario with my speed. Pray tell how you can beat a Master that cannot be targeted by Ht1 models with a Ht1 crew? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireTrollJake Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 Pray tell how you can beat a Master that cannot be targeted by Ht1 models with a Ht1 crew? Step 1) Play a scenario based game. Step 2) Don't bring gremlins if you flip slaughter. Step 3) Target your scenario, not Hammy. Step 4) Profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Step 1) Play a scenario based game. Step 2) Don't bring gremlins if you flip slaughter. Step 3) Target your scenario, not Hammy. I posted in another thread how, in my experience playing with Hammy, my wins have generally been the result of the other player wasting time trying to kill him and his crew rather than achieving their own Strategies and Schemes. A few cuddles for Hammy are needed, but the number of people who seem to think that the only way to play Malifaux is to spend 4+ Turns laying into the other crew and then one or two turns scrambling to achieve objectives in the end (and frequently failing) always shocks me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Step 1) Play a scenario based game. Step 2) Don't bring gremlins if you flip slaughter. Step 3) Target your scenario, not Hammy. Step 4) Profit. Step 2) revised: Do bring Som'er in a slaughter, and keep some 10+ to get Mosquitoes in the swarm to blow up a whole lotta rats ^^ step 5) bring things that don't need to target (Père Ravagé, Mosquitoes, Som'er himself, blasts) step 6) Make sure Hamelin gets to discard all cards he has, Gremlins have the easiest time ever doing this ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireTrollJake Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Also, always remember that Sommer's boomstick can do some serious blast damage. I managed a severe with a red joker for damage to clear out an ally way that had 3 rats, an alp and 2 wounded rat catchers. Sacrificed Sommer, but well worth it as my Warpig then had charge lane to the supply wagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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