Sex in the Game - a barriers to entry discussion

[Jonas Albrecht]

Colette's actually not a bad example of powerful. She's a Master magician, and Cassandra is, when not being depicted as suffering from extra stupid, quite capable.

I would have liked Kirai's story a lot more if it was more about her coming to terms with her abilities, and didn't involve Nicodem.

[morella]

I'm going to start on that blog post, but I'll keep checking in here.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I think Sonnia Criid is a good deal different in terms of representation from Lady Justice, or as she's known down my LGS, "Lady J-boobs". I think, from looking at the fluff, Sonnia Criid could have been written as a man or a woman - there is no gender issue in her being badass and interesting to like.

Unless you include her interactions with Samuel, other than that she good portray of a women

[ThePandaDirector]

@Jonas: I suppose we're both right, since it's an open debate, but see here for more:

"In the book Feminism is for Everybody, Bell Hooks defines feminism as "a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression", while the Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of sexual equality.""

"Brian Klocke of the National Organisation for Men against Sexism has argued: "Although I believe that men can be pro-feminist and anti-sexist, I do not believe we can be feminists in the strictest sense of the word in today's society. Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege in relation to women. To be a feminist one must be a member of the targeted group (ie a woman) not only as a matter of classification but as having one's directly-lived experience inform one's theory and praxis.""

Anyway, I won't mention that again =]

As for social perception, that is important and I think that this industry may have to pull a Nintendo (potentially misrepresent its current audience, or perceived audience, to attract a desired demographic) and highlight new gamers and female gamers without discriminating them (contradicting I know) in the hope of educating others as to how to conduct themselves (friendly friendly friendly) and be a self-fulfilling prophecy for the expansion of the hobby as a whole.

I like Kirai and Sonnia is pretty asexual =] But as far as women go in Malifaux, I think most people's issue is with their physical appearance, not character. I mean Kirai is a women who turned into a prostitute (as Ratty stated not unsusual), but then there are lot of fat, "ugly" prostitutes and Kirai could have been less Disney Princess in her physique despite not being a sex object due both to her robes and depressive state. I want to see more people of all shapes and sizes and not forced into a predictable stereotype (stubby fat black women as a voodoo priest, dwarf as a... dwarf, fat Japanese male as sumu wrestler, etc). It's not that Sonnia can't be slim and athletic, or that it doesn't make sense that 'Tina would be thin despite always being hungry, but that they are somewhat predictable. And predictability is the thing Wyrd should conciously target, since it doesn't have any gender responsability or feelings

[Sliver Chocobo]

Colette's actually not a bad example of powerful. She's a Master magician, and Cassandra is, when not being depicted as suffering from extra stupid, quite capable.

I would have liked Kirai's story a lot more if it was more about her coming to terms with her abilities, and didn't involve Nicodem.

I hate Kirai, she just cries all the time

[Victoria]

I am a female, and sex sells to me.

I was drawn to Malifaux by a picture of coryphee, but I fell in love with Rasputina's thigh high stockings, and she was who I bought as my first master.

I have a history of purchasing models that I find appealing in this way, and I don't stop to think about whether or not they are being objectified.

In the end, even a fully clothed, capable, powerful woman character can be objectified as well. It isn't flashing skin that does it.

But as far as being turned off by this sort of thing, I'm not. I might even get a good laugh at it.

[Jonas Albrecht]

It isn't flashing skin that does it.

You're absolutely right.

[ThePandaDirector]

I am a female, and sex sells to me.

I think you mean fashion or aesthetic sells to you since knee high stokings are appealing regardless of who wears them. Saying that I would like a model of a lean female (adult or child) wearing a panda hat more than a fat woman or man (that's more paternal motive than sexual). That is perhaps predictable and ties to your point that it's more than just the skin you show or don't show.

But talking to a friend on the matter, we agree that the example morella gave about the staff member talking to her male friend rather than addressing both equally, to determine who they both were (since she is in fact who he would then target), is really interesting. So why is that so different in this industry, or is it universal? It's diffiuclt to deal with it because part of it is to not draw too much attention to it since that also leads to discrimination and possible alienation.

Edited July 15, 2012 by ThePandaDirector

[Ratty]

I think you mean fashion or aesthetic sells to you since knee high stokings are appealing regardless of who wears them.

I really don't think they would suit me... When I was younger maybe.

Saying that I would like a model of a lean female (adult or child) wearing a panda hat more than a fat woman or man (that's more paternal motive than sexual).

Is that a Panda hat made from real Panda?

[ThePandaDirector]

I really don't think they would suit me... When I was younger maybe.

Oh come on Ratty, you'd look spiffing-

Is that a Panda hat made from real Panda?

DIE!!!!!

*Panda lunges at Ratty and turns him into a hat*

[Ratty]

*Panda lunges at Ratty and turns him into a hat*

Rats do make great hats...

[1min 36]

http://youtu.be/5lnuC9c2iMg?t=1m35s

[Dustcrusher]

Wyrd's doing a much better job of having interesting characters of both genders than many miniatures companies. I've let someone I'm seeing borrow my Malifaux 1.0 rulebook, and so far she likes that both genders have a variety of character types, and that not all of the women are "broads with broadswords" (as I've heard one sarcastic writer call that stereotype) or subservient.

As for feminism/anti-sexism, I just do my best to be respectful to everyone and let people speak their truth (what they believe). I feel there's a line between standing beside women and attempting to speak for them, and as I've seen on gaming-related blogs recently, it is both a fine and fuzzy line. To paraphrase a famous quote- if you're going to dislike someone, do it based on the individual's personality. Anything else is just being lazy.

So, in the hopes that it's still pertinent, what are some other games that are more egalitarian (is that the right word?) with regards to gender roles? Alkemy is pretty good about it, I think. The game also gets in some more middle-aged people too, so there's more than skinny/muscle-bound and ancient/barely mature.

[Boscotopia]

The lesson here: Women aren't a single entity. Which means the "I know a girl who's okay with it" argument is and always has been nonsense.

+1

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

Two words: Uncontrolled Crying. The Ressers do not have a Female lead (1 Master, 1 Henchwoman) that does not have it.

The women that have seen this game's depiction of women, Size D or larger breasts, bikini tops on combat-intensive figures and Nurses (need I continue with that one?), have called it juvenile.

The problem with most miniature games is they are stuck in junior high or high school. A woman who is engaged in combat wearing a chain mail bra may be cool and sexy in high school when you are drawing a picture or playing some game and not really thinking....... as an adult, I would hope most people's brains have further developed to stop for a moment and see that there are many things wrong with that situation. Psychologically, why did she choose that outfit? Did someone force her to wear that? Is there a combat advantage to that? Is it a unform? Who designed the uniforms? What kind of person wears that comfortably or efficiently? Would that outfit stay on for long with her swinging and jumping with her size D breasts(or larger)? Why is she still wearing it if it hinders her? I can suspend disbelief if there is a good enough rationale or explanation used but you can't explain away physics or common sense without reverting to some wet fantasy where it all makes sense. Fantasy, good fantasy, still has rules and still has a basis in the natural world. If breasts do not move nor get in the way when pushed up in Malifaux, we need the fluff that says so. Never gets hotter than 80 and never colder than 70? We need the fluff to say that or that skin does not burn in the sun nor frostbitten in the cold. Exposed skin not a problem in knife or sword fight? We need the fluff to explain why in Malifaux this is the case ( because that is not the case on Earth). Cheesecake for the sake of cheesecake is a bit sad, like an old guy at a club.

[morella]

I see the comic industry (and following from there, fantasy art, games, etc) as being just another piece in the chain. It's not necessarily the sex that sells, it is the perfect image of our idealized selves. And no, not everyone has the same ideal, which is fine. (Societal) Tastes wax and wane all the time, while some remain a constant. The Greeks celebrated the human form and public nudity was common/required in certain events.

As to the outfits, I guess some see it as silly; personally I find it amusing. Yes, people dressed in more appropriate fighting attire might make more sense, but it may not make better models. But that is according to my taste and aesthetic sensibility. I get that some people don't care for it and hope that producers will be able to create alternative products to appeal to both.

As for Molly, I think the fluff has developed her pre-death character well. I've never seen her as crying and dependent (phlegmatic really), though of course she doesn't exactly have free will either (which makes total sense, since she's a zombie).

[Victoria]

I think you mean fashion or aesthetic sells to you since knee high stokings are appealing regardless of who wears them.

No, I mean that I am sexually attracted to the image of a woman wearing thigh high stockings.

[Boscotopia]

No, I mean that I am sexually attracted to the image of a woman wearing thigh high stockings.

I am on Victoria's wagon for the attraction aspect, but also I keep in mind this not a sex game.

Morella is correct with the idea that there should be alternate sculpts ( please, please do new sculpts of the Nurses) that are less cheese/beefcake (or even MORE cheese/beefcake if the first sculpt was tame.\, like Sonnia) on the second go-round. I love, LOVE the alt-sculpt for Rasputina and she is the reason I am even considering Arcanists again, but I know some would buy Sonnia and her crew if she was naked and only covered in explicit areas by licking flames........... hmmmmm....... I might even buy that.

[morella]

I think it's kind of funny that the men on here seem to have more issues about these things than the women. And by funny, I mean I'm chuckling - not at anyone, but at the sort of upside downness of it.

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

of course, 2 women responding is not defintiive at all

[Boscotopia]

I think it's kind of funny that the men on here seem to have more issues about these things than the women. And by funny, I mean I'm chuckling - not at anyone, but at the sort of upside downness of it.

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

of course, 2 women responding is not defintiive at all

No one person can speak for an entire gender, race, or sexual orientation.

Any woman who does not play, play other games, or play casually (like my girlfriend) will not come onto these forums. The people on this forum or any forum are the choir and the preaching that goes on convinces only the convinced. The doubters and the haters are not here or not here for long. I am not saying this is a bad thread, I actually think this is bringing up something that has bothered many people, myself included. I am just wondering if we are asking the right question(s) and I am not sure if anything will come of this other than some saying they take issue and others trying to dismiss it.........but when has that ever stopped me?

It seems no one is questioning that the game utilizies stereo-types that permeate this genre so then the question that comes to mind is: just because everyone else has done it and continues to do it, is that acceptable?

Some will say yes and others will say no.

The other questions that come to mind after reading this thread are: Is it possible to have great characters without resorting to cliches and stereo-types? Will more gamers come to Malifaux with the choice of realistic and/or cake?

I say the answer is yes to both of those and is also the ethical thing to do. It has nothing to do with whether or not I am the offended member, it has more to do with seeing something crude and questioning its necessity.

[morella]

No one person can speak for an entire gender, race, or sexual orientation.

It seems no one is questioning that the game utilizies stereo-types that permeate this genre so then the question that comes to mind is: just because everyone else has done it and continues to do it, is that acceptable?

The other questions that come to mind after reading this thread are: Is it possible to have great characters without resorting to cliches and stereo-types? Will more gamers come to Malifaux with the choice of realistic and/or cake?

I say the answer is yes to both of those and is also the ethical thing to do. It has nothing to do with whether or not I am the offended member, it has more to do with seeing something crude and questioning its necessity.

1) Agreed

2) I believe I did bring this up - not questioning it personally because I am fine with it, but to each their own

3) Mmmmmm....cake *grin*

I'm just not seeing all the cliches and stereotypes I guess

4) Not seeing the crude either, but again, my aesthetic sensibility.... the (non-Wyrd) model that started this whole thing, though, that was crude - or at least just ugly

Also, is no one impressed by my use of the word phlegmatic in both its literal and figurative meanings? Can't find the pat myself on the back smiley

---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

While I was on my way to the store, all I could think about was "Help, help, I'm being oppressed!" (though I think it is actually supposed to be repressed)

[Bruglyother]

Alright, I have been lurking on this thread long enough.

I think there are very valid points on both sides of this. The industry in general has a tendency to portray women either as broadsword babe or helpless victim. The models tend to be hyper sexualized. That's if a company even bothers with female portrayals.

When you get down to the LGS level, it can be even worse. Many store employees seeing a couple walk in automatically assume that the guy is the one shopping. To be fair, this is often based on the experience that it is often true. Female gamers, while more prevalent now than when I started gaming, are still the exception.

Also, many of the smaller sculpting companies, or individual sculptors putting things up on the web, fall into the cliche trap with frequent regularity. And why not. It is a truth that sex sells. Is it right? Who knows. But it is true at this time.

Now, with all that being said, I think there are some very big exceptions. I also think that Wyrd has done a very good job with this issue. Yes, they have their cliche models. We have Lady J who is very much a broadsword babe. But we also have Connia Crid, who is broadsword, but not exactly babe. (Her outfit is very practical). Pandora doesn't exactly fit in the cliches. Kirai has the victim feel, until you look at the fluff and realize how freaking scary she can be, while being pitiful. And of course there is Zoraida, the only pair of exposed $$$$$$$$ in the game. (Shudder!) What I am getting at is that while some of the models do fall into the cliches, at both ends, there are many that don't. Wyrd has done a really good job of creating a wide variety of Female characters to appeal to a wide variety of consumers. You want the hot babe factor? We've got it. You want the sensible empowered woman? We've got that. You want the old crones? We've got them too. And we've got more coming. (Teaser art has already shown even more varieties of female characters.)

This applies both to the sculpting and to the fluff. So yes, the industry has some sex issues. But Wyrd does not seem to have fallen prey to it (much). They have elements of it, but they also have balancing elements.

I think a lot of this is a generational thing. I think as the current generation of school kids gets older, we will see even more of a shift. When I was in school, I only knew of one female gamer, and she only played Magic. Now, I go into my LGS to fins roughly a third of the card floppers present are female. Girls and women are frequently found playing RPGs. I think a lot of this has to do with the lifting of the stigma of being a geek/nerd. With WoW and other such video games, it is becoming more normal. Yes, males are still the majority, and even more so in miniature games. But it is shifting. And with the shift in demographics there is also a shift in design to meet the demands of the new demographics. It's all a matter of time.

[Hateful Darkblack]

My thoughts on this:

1. I'm super-excited that we're having this discussion.

2. Yes, Malifaux has some sexy imagery and sexual content. Some people are going to be offended by that.

3. Honestly, I think Malifaux does a much better job than other games of portraying a wide variety of demographics of characters. There's a stunningly high level of parity between male and female Masters/Henchmen. (50%, by my count.) There are also powerful, believable, and well-portrayed characters of various races, ages, class origins, and levels of physical ability. I think that's really impressive and it makes me excited about the game.

4. Some of the female models do play into sexist stereotypes. Some don't. Malifaux has a wonderful way of playing with and against literary stereotypes, many of which are very sexist.

5. From what I've seen, most of the female Malifaux players are pretty enthusiastic about Showgirls.

6. There's a difference between sexy and pornographic, and an appropriate time and place for each. Malifaux does a great job (in my opinion) on having plenty of sexy and not so much pornographic.

7. The sexuality of the characters in the game is overwhelmingly heterosexual. As a queer gamer, I'd be thrilled to see even one LGBT character, but I don't really begrudge it much, because Wyrd does such a great job, generally, on portraying a lot of different demographics.

8. Honestly, I'm accustomed to seeing most games have very few female characters, and all of them being totally oversexualized, and none of the male characters sexualized at all. Malifaux has a ton of female characters, some of them very sexualized (Nurse, Lilitu, Cassandra), some not at all (Sonnia, Zoraida, Rusty Alyce). It also has sexualized male characters (Lilu, Seamus, and in a way Lost Love) which is rare to find in any game.

9. Personally, I feel a lot better about sexy portrayals of characters when it happens to both male and female characters.

10. Overally, I'd say that Wyrd takes some really interesting risks with character portrayals in Malifaux, and I'm really happy about that.

[Boscotopia]

Also, is no one impressed by my use of the word phlegmatic in both its literal and figurative meanings? Can't find the pat myself on the back smiley

)

*da.bomb*

Closest they got.......

[the imp]

I approve of this discussion in general. To be honest, i think the odor of a game shop full of hygiene challenged MtG players is a bigger barrier to participation than any of the sexualized imagery present in most games. It's enough to drive me away sometimes.

[Boscotopia]

I approve of this discussion in general. To be honest, i think the odor of a game shop full of hygiene challenged MtG players is a bigger barrier to participation than any of the sexualized imagery present in most games. It's enough to drive me away sometimes.

+1

Even men are driven off by what you speak of.

[LordZombie]

What an interesting topic. I for one am glad and thank Wyrd for noticing that females do exist and can do things. Many other games systems would have you think that there are no women at all or that all they do is sit at home caring for the next set of male soldiers to head off to battle. Malifaux is one of first minis game that I have played that has a good balance of male and female models, and some are the leaders. On the topic of female gamers, as the host of gaming at my local shop for the last 13 years, I have had the pleasure of knowing 7 female gamers. Of the seven, four of them played Wahammer fantasy (lizardmen, wood elf, and the other two were deamons of chaos) and the other 3 are newest having join in Malifaux (Raspunita, Colette, and Ophelia). I see reasons on both sides for ladies not wanting/not feeling welcomed to play. From guys and their inablility to act around females, and from ladies looking in on a room full of guys and thinking they would not be caught dead in the room. I think the barriers will always be there, coming from both sides.