Toxic4Mosh Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 So iv read a few posts on the forum and iv come across some things that ill be posting about here. Ok i love how Wyrd dose stuff to help their player base and instead of waiting 4 years for an update on something broken (alp bomb or chompy sling shot) that Wryd sees the problem and cuddle's the abilities after print. Then again its disappointing to see that some of these abilities have slipped through the loop in play testing and have had a little time before they are getting that cuddle they need to balance the game. I see all these cuddle's to book 2 models, but wheres the Buffs to book 1 models to bring them up to scratch. for example Ice golem. Its 9ss and for its cost it has nothing. von schill is 9ss, coppelius is 9ss everything that is 9ss in book two is so awesome and yet things like Ice golem need a buff or at least a refund on its ss cost. i have seen 5ss models that have a better damage output. to sum up the post. im asking if Wyrd can cuddle all these book 2 models why cant they also buff the old book 1 models? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotFirebox Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Mostly because changing existing models does not directly make them $ because most people own those models already. Also because their design department is likely a bit overstretched with Book 4, and selling new models is more important than fixing old ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) Mostly because changing existing models does not directly make them $ because most people own those models already. I'd say this is uncharitable. There's a lot of discussion that they put into things that they change, and they don't like changing things if they don't have to. But, they have changed Dreamer, Alps, and a whole bunch of other models, including Nekima, which the change to her wasn't exactly one that inspired sales. Also because their design department is likely a bit overstretched with Book 4, and selling new models is more important than fixing old ones. This is much more likely the cause. Edit: Not the selling bit, the new models to work with bit. Edited July 9, 2012 by edonil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The simple answer is that its more important in a competitive enviroment to fix the overpowered models then boost the under powered one. No one is going to rage quit because the Ice Golem isn't very good, but they may if they are beaten 100 times in a row by pre-errata LCB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The problem with the Ice Golem isn't its damage output. It's the fact its dreadfully slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotFirebox Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The simple answer is that its more important in a competitive enviroment to fix the overpowered models then boost the under powered one. No one is going to rage quit because the Ice Golem isn't very good, but they may if they are beaten 100 times in a row by pre-errata LCB. This is a bit of a fallacy... overpowered models are only overpowered because the things that play against them are not powerful enough to do so. Fixing underpowered models could have the same effect, and certainly doing both would be very complimentary (and, likely, boost sales of old models that no one buys). But new releases are guaranteed $$$, and that's the most important driving factor here; an enjoyable game not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) You know, I thought the bellyaching looked awfully familiar to someone recently moderated/banned. You naturally are inclined to your view, and we even allow you a place to have it here (notice, not deleted), but at the same time, creating a new account after the old has been sorted .. not happening. No multiple accounts on here, even says it in our policies. Edited July 9, 2012 by Nathan Caroland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Anyone else think book 1.5 might adress some of these things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Sorry no. We've already stated its just the updated rules that we've put on v2 cards as well as the rules from the Rules Manual. If you're looking for sweeping changes, sorry, not in there, just now its available in the core rule book format that has been out of print and hollered for a good long while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Sorry no. We've already stated its just the updated rules that we've put on v2 cards as well as the rules from the Rules Manual. If you're looking for sweeping changes, sorry, not in there, just now its available in the core rule book format that has been out of print and hollered for a good long while. Wait... you mean you guys at Wyrd actually responded to customer input and produced a book that was highly demanded? Say it isn't so Nathan, that might start to make people think that the threads saying you never listen to your customers could be just sour grapes of a couple individuals. *grin* **I was feeling left out with all the complaint threads... now I need to find something to quit...... *grin* *grin* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Sorry no. We've already stated its just the updated rules that we've put on v2 cards as well as the rules from the Rules Manual. If you're looking for sweeping changes, sorry, not in there, just now its available in the core rule book format that has been out of print and hollered for a good long while. So no new Artwork either ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 New cover artwork (well, mostly just recolored to our current style). Believe the puppets inside are full color instead of black and white line work. Other than that, maybe an old style line drawing or two that made it in for formatting but no, no sweeping new changes/updates to artwork. Rules were updated from those that were in the smaller rules handbook. v2 stats were worked into the characters so that its updated in the book. Did a bit of updating on the main story line with editing and a bit of character building there for the fun of it, but nothing folks need to toss down and run out for unless they were wanting the original core book anyhow. Not trying to pull you in with a 'you have to have this book' - honestly if you've got the rules handbook and updated stat cards and don't care about anything else that would be in the book (fluff, etc), you're absolutely good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Actually I allready got book 1 but am still thinking about buying 1.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Sorry no. We've already stated its just the updated rules that we've put on v2 cards as well as the rules from the Rules Manual. If you're looking for sweeping changes, sorry, not in there, just now its available in the core rule book format that has been out of print and hollered for a good long while. Thanks for the info ---------- Post added at 03:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ---------- Still getting book 1.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtank Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 But Nate...you make it sound like you're not an evil corporate money vampire only interested in selling us stuff we don't need...this surely can't be right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malovane Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 to sum up the post. im asking if Wyrd can cuddle all these book 2 models why cant they also buff the old book 1 models? This is a bit of a fallacy... overpowered models are only overpowered because the things that play against them are not powerful enough to do so. Fixing underpowered models could have the same effect, and certainly doing both would be very complimentary (and, likely, boost sales of old models that no one buys). I would guess the reason for not buffing underpowered models is simply one of logistics. It is easier to tune 1 model down than to try to bring every other model up to that models level. Bringing a single "broken" model back in line is generally less time consuming than trying to find the best way to buff the perceived weak models. Further, you get into discussions of power creep. If everything keeps moving upward, you risk tipping the scales so to say. See 40k and codex power creep where the newest release trends toward the strongest. Its generally a better idea to pull models back down in line with the original "power" scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Lol. This book was entirely for the players [that have asked repeatedly for it]. I don't think Wyrd will be making much money on it. Considering the editing time and [small] artwork update and stuff like that: I think they'll be lucky to break even on it. But it'll have everything current - rules and stats and fluff in one place. Nathan's only evil to the people he loves. Trust me. Seriously. on topic: Buffing models is a very legit proposal. We ultimately want balance. Playtesting, no matter how good, how robust, how professional, can NEVER equal the true testing of an exponential play group. There are thousands of players out there trying everything. However, even the players don't really want models constantly shifting stats and abilities and costs all over the place. It'd be a nightmare to keep track of. So, our priority for errata is to fix "broken" pieces that become auto-include or dominate various competitive fields. We can say "Ice Golem is passed over 'cause he's weak!" and even convince everyone of its legitimacy (I'm convinced already, let the guy chill) - but in play you can just let him sit and pull out a different model or two and play the game. It's not a priority. We are certainly hearing a cry for more global balance and Wyrd has a whole buffet of revision we're looking at. It'll not be dropped tomorrow or even the next day, and it'll no doubt continue to frustrate a lot of people that would like it yesterday, but we're sincerely looking at what needs to be done to address the issue of balance from models that are too good to those declared too bad. Patience. Gamers have little of it. I'm a gamer, too. But anything that gets rolled out will not be shot from the hip. We're not simply going to read a thread here and go, "Oh, Nilus says Perdita needs +4 Wounds, a Def of 10, and Paired Magical Pistols, let's do it!" (he would say all that, too....). We'll be testing anything we intend to roll out as thoroughly as we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Side note: we did feel the bury errata and the Push to updates (both in the FAQ/Errata documents, so if you've already printed them out you have those rules already) were worth sneaking into the 1.5 rulebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) On the talk of Power Level and Buffing and Nerfing of models I think this diagram might help explain things a bit At the moment I would consider the balance of Malifaux to be something like this. A huge amount of the models are in the center, there are some which are a bit less or a bit more powerful but are quite close to the median, An Ice Golem might not be the best choice in the game but won't lose the game for you. Then you have a tail of models that are quite a bit more powerful than the rest. If we are going to spend time readjusting Malifaux we will try to grab those models that deviate the most from the median first. and try to pull them back in. To make the graph to look more like is this. Edited July 9, 2012 by Ratty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 If you cut off a rat's tail, does it cease to be a rat? Now that is the question... And I like how you're trying to "cut off" the long tail and I'm trying to incorporate it (of course in two different subject areas) =] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustcrusher Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) Actually I allready got book 1 but am still thinking about buying 1.5 I managed to track down and buy a copy of Book 1...less than two weeks before 1.5 was announced :facepalm: Still, if I like the layout of 1.5 I might go ahead and get it anyway. Might use the RM for normal game night and 1.5 for when I do demos. It's always nice having options. I'm hoping e-reader optimized PDFs are a future consideration. I would love to have all of my pertinent rulebooks on a single tablet or e-reader. Having to decide on the DRM question would/will be a tough one. Edited July 9, 2012 by Dustcrusher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csonti Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 You know, I thought the bellyaching looked awfully familiar to someone recently moderated/banned. You naturally are inclined to your view, and we even allow you a place to have it here (notice, not deleted), but at the same time, creating a new account after the old has been sorted .. not happening. No multiple accounts on here, even says it in our policies. I wanted to note exactly the same thing but resisted the temptation. At least now I can believe in reincarnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 *still hoping for one book with every Model in it, with or without power increase...* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 If you cut off a rat's tail, does it cease to be a rat? Now that is the question... And I like how you're trying to "cut off" the long tail and I'm trying to incorporate it (of course in two different subject areas) =] We could cut it ratty's tail off to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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