Model's Defense stat by faction - who's the worst? Who's the best?

[nix]

In the Calmdown - Malifaux suggestions thread there was a comment made that really intrigued me. The comment was:

For thematic reasons Ressers tend to be very easy to hit (we have almost universally terrible Df scores across the board), but somewhat resilient as we have slightly above average wounds for point total, and Hard to wound as the sop to prevent cheating and to make up for low df.

I will admit that this just adds to my Reser-curiosity appearance as a number of recent activities have. In addition, I started to wonder not only how accurate this statement was, but also who was the best/worst from a faction standpoint.

Thankfully Rotating Panda has an amazing thread he named Malifaux by the Number. I emailed with RP a bit and he shared some of the numbers with me. I dug through them and here is what I found:

On Defense for just minions:

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]Faction

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Avg Df

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]High Df

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Low Df

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Neverborn[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.89[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Candy, Kade (7)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Bad JuJu (3)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Arcanist[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.74[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Coryphee Duet (7)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Ice Golem (2)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Resurrectionists[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.45[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Bete (7)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Mindless Zombie (2)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Outcasts[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.34[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Bishop, Piglet (6)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Pigapult (1), Desolation Engine (2)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Guild[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.27[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Witchling Handler (6)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Executioner, Guardian, Lawyer, Ryle (3)[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

So, by averaged Res are actually right in the middle of the pack. I found it interesting that Guild was at the bottom, but they also have far fewer outliers overall to drag the total up or down.

That made me want to look at just counts. How many models were at which defense in the faction:

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500]

[TR]

[TD]Faction

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 1 or 2

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 3

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 4

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 5

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 6 or 7

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Arcanist[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4[/TD]

[TD=align: center]7[/TD]

[TD=align: center]10[/TD]

[TD=align: center]9[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Guild[/TD]

[TD=align: center]0[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4[/TD]

[TD=align: center]12[/TD]

[TD=align: center]9[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Neverborn[/TD]

[TD=align: center]0[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]10[/TD]

[TD=align: center]10[/TD]

[TD=align: center]7[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Outcast[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[TD=align: center]3[/TD]

[TD=align: center]16[/TD]

[TD=align: center]18[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Resurrectionist[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4[/TD]

[TD=align: center]8[/TD]

[TD=align: center]14[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

This look I found to be the most interesting in terms of the original comment. In reality, Resers have the second highest number of Df 5 models in the game, behind outcasts. Thier distribution is actually at the higher end of defense across thier models, compared to other factions.

So, after reading through all that and looking at the numbers, here is a quick question for the community. Do these numbers line up with your feelings about your chosen faction? Were you surprised by anything in here?

Edited July 6, 2012 by nix

[Sliver Chocobo]

There's more to defence that just the stat

[nix]

Fair enough, the comment that spurred my thoughts was very specific about the stat however.

[Fastenhate]

There's more to defence that just the stat

I would ammend that to "There's more to reducing income damage than just the stat."

In a lot of situations a high Df is just plain better. When attacks have on hit effects (i.e. slow, poison, paralysis, ignore armor, gaining counters, kill triggers, etc.) getting that miss is huge.

Yes, hard to wound, armor, spirit and the other defensive factors are all usefull but when a fast or melee expert model gets miss, miss, miss that can be a game changer.

Not to mention chain paralysis. Paralysis is so powerful and low defense models have no answer but to stay away.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Fastenhate

[RotatingPanda]

This is a great idea for a thread

I'm honestly surprised to see Arcanists with the most high Df models. It's funny as this kind of reinforces my feelings on Df: when I see a 4, I think "Huh, average" but when I see a 5, I think it's decent. Anything above that always strikes me as "exceptional."

[nilus]

These numbers tell me that I can start complaining about Guilds poor defense

[Gruesome]

These numbers tell me that I can start complaining about Guilds poor defense

Defense and red jokers are OURS! Find your own thing to whine about.

And my perception of rezzer defense is much more valid in my head than any stupid math...

[RotatingPanda]

With all the Stubborn and Fear Not Death floating around The Guild, I think their defensive strength is supposed to be their Willpower. Plus, with so much ranged fire power throughout, they can take relatively easy advantage of cover.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I would ammend that to "There's more to reducing income damage than just the stat."

In a lot of situations a high Df is just plain better. When attacks have on hit effects (i.e. slow, poison, paralysis, ignore armor, gaining counters, kill triggers, etc.) getting that miss is huge.

Yes, hard to wound, armor, spirit and the other defensive factors are all usefull but when a fast or melee expert model gets miss, miss, miss that can be a game changer.

Not to mention chain paralysis. Paralysis is so powerful and low defense models have no answer but to stay away.

I wasn't thinking of that

Zoriadia and lucius give to the Cb of any attacker

Tuco has a spell to gain this effect

A few models can't be targets by ranged spell

Lilith has a trigger that reduces the Cb of an attacker that misses her

[Korrosion]

Seeing two book 1 models tied for the highest defense in Neverborn surprised me. Same for the Outcasts.

[dunce002917]

Well, fluff-wise Rezzers should have the lowest defense since most of their minions are undead zombies... somehow, I highly doubt zombies would do a lot of dodging... if at all, they can take more punishment before "dying".

As a Guild player, I have yet to complain about their Df stats. Perhaps I cheat fate a lot more times than others.

Of course, my best defense is a strong offense.. right Lady J? Lucius?

[edonil]

hmm. I'm kinda curious know what the breakdown is for Df for non-Spirit Rezzers...not that I think the numbers are bad, I'm kinda surprised by them. But still, curious.

[bashamer]

meh, base stats.

Rezzers can get to Def 9 w/ 2 models; thank god they don't tough.

Honestly this game is so bloody complex that basestats matter ~25% towards to overall model.

if you want to do survivability you could baseline it with the average number of attacks required by a deathmarshal to kill the model. but that would be math; lots and lots of math.

[nix]

hmm. I'm kinda curious know what the breakdown is for Df for non-Spirit Rezzers...not that I think the numbers are bad, I'm kinda surprised by them. But still, curious.

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500]

[TR]

[TD]Type

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 2-3

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 4

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 5

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Df 6-7

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Non-Spirit

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]5

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]9

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Spirit

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]3

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]5

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]0

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

meh, base stats.

Rezzers can get to Def 9 w/ 2 models; thank god they don't tough.

Honestly this game is so bloody complex that basestats matter ~25% towards to overall model.

if you want to do survivability you could baseline it with the average number of attacks required by a deathmarshal to kill the model. but that would be math; lots and lots of math.

I agree completely with your statement. I think some people are ignoring or missing the point of the post. I was going through the exercise in response to thoughts that kicked up based on a very specific comment. This is just an interesting exercise looking at comparative base stats. Most important for me is I am interested in where a perception (Reser's have low defense) to real statements (Reser's have terrible DF stats and are easy to hit). The statistics are only as good as the result you are trying to use them for. In this case, its just a comparative exercise and does not speak to the strength or weakness of specific models or factions. Just a nice comparison.

[bashamer]

it kinda feels like the Nicodem tax.

yep it is pretty bad, but there is this dude that can give everyone +2 DEF; So ether we make sure that most of the models have pretty bad base stats or we remove the ability.

Or the models that have decent base stats really don't mesh well with Nico.

[nix]

@bashamer true, but I am also fairly confident that's something that's looked at during playtesting. I imagine all new res models are looked at with an eye to how they work with Nico and without, then that feedback is considered by the developers.

[edonil]

Huh. I think what this is telling me is that I need to get in more games with my Ressers and see where I'm getting that perception from...thanks for doing the work, Nix!

[Malovane]

Huh. I think what this is telling me is that I need to get in more games with my Ressers and see where I'm getting that perception from...thanks for doing the work, Nix!

Perhaps from the low df of their masters? I'd hazard to guess that resser masters avg out as lowest or nearly lowest on avg def for masters. Based purely on faulty memory, so someone else can pull real numbers to prove/disprove my guess *grin*

[nix]

Could be:

Master's DF in game (Raw Stat highest to lowest)

1. Df 8 - Perdita / Lilith
   
2. Df 6 - Colette / Som'er / Viktoria
   
3. Df 5 - Marcus / Justice / Zoraida / Hamelin
   
4. Df 4 - Criid / LCB / McMourning / Seamus
   
5. Df 3 - Rasputina / Hoffman / Nicodem
   
6. Df 2 - Pandora / Dreamer / Leveticus / Kirai
   

Keep in mind that several of these masters have other defenses, these are just raw stats. From the looks of this list, Ressers seem to suffer not coming in until they get to an "average" Df 4 and then fill out the lower levels. At the same token, the lowest DF Masters all have some sort of hyper protection as well. (Pandora - opposed WP and push, Dreamer - cannot be targeted, Levi - likes to die, Kirai - seishin)

Its a good point that the impression for bad defense in the game might be just from the Masters themselves, as the Masters are fairly memorable within the game. This could sway the whole perception away from actuality fairly quickly.

[Malovane]

Quick response is quick. Thanks for the breakdown.

Its a good point that the impression for bad defense in the game might be just from the Masters themselves, as the Masters are fairly memorable within the game. This could sway the whole perception away from actuality fairly quickly.

Exactly this. Early games definitely gave that impression when running ressers. You don't really remember someone easily slapping around your rotten belles. Yet, someone easily hitting your master time and time again tends to stick out. Particularly if you're having trouble hitting your opponents master - Neverborn stick out in my mind as the hardest to pin down either due to high natural df or those tricky special rules.

Of course, there is so much more to overall survivability than that simple df number. Still I find it to be an interesting analysis.

[Forar]

It'd be impossible to account for across the hundreds/thousands of playgroups in the world, but it occurs to me that some of the averaging might do well to consider the models as a whole as well.

Which is to say that surely there are some outliers (high and low even) that aren't used commonly enough to justify equal weighting. Sure, Model X might have a great/terrible DF, but if it's never used then it's artificially bringing up/down the average for the faction.

I'm still new and am not familiar enough with the game outside of my commonly used masters/factions to say this with concrete examples, but I know there are at least a few models that seem to be 'universally panned' as it were, so if they're included as equals amongst their peers, isn't that throwing off the numbers?

Edit: also, you can't see me, but I'm looking so smug right now, and will point this thread out to my friends the next time I get grief for how 'overpowered' Guild minions supposedly are, pound for pound by SS cost at least.

[dgraz]

Edit: also, you can't see me, but I'm looking so smug right now, and will point this thread out to my friends the next time I get grief for how 'overpowered' Guild minions supposedly are, pound for pound by SS cost at least.

Don't be confused by these useless stats! Guild is clearly the greatest faction!

2012!!!!

The year of the Ram!!!

[rancor709]

In the Calmdown - Malifaux suggestions thread there was a comment made that really intrigued me. The comment was:

I will admit that this just adds to my Reser-curiosity appearance as a number of recent activities have. In addition, I started to wonder not only how accurate this statement was, but also who was the best/worst from a faction standpoint.

Thankfully Rotating Panda has an amazing thread he named Malifaux by the Number. I emailed with RP a bit and he shared some of the numbers with me. I dug through them and here is what I found:

On Defense for just minions:

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]Faction

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Avg Df

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]High Df

[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Low Df

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Neverborn[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.89[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Candy, Kade (7)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Bad JuJu (3)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Arcanist[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.74[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Coryphee Duet (7)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Ice Golem (2)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Resurrectionists[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.45[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Bete (7)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Mindless Zombie (2)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Outcasts[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.34[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Bishop, Piglet (6)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Pigapult (1), Desolation Engine (2)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Guild[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.27[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Witchling Handler (6)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Executioner, Guardian, Lawyer, Ryle (3)[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

So, by averaged Res are actually right in the middle of the pack. I found it interesting that Guild was at the bottom, but they also have far fewer outliers overall to drag the total up or down.

That made me want to look at just counts. How many models were at which defense in the faction:

This look I found to be the most interesting in terms of the original comment. In reality, Resers have the second highest number of Df 5 models in the game, behind outcasts. Thier distribution is actually at the higher end of defense across thier models, compared to other factions.

So, after reading through all that and looking at the numbers, here is a quick question for the community. Do these numbers line up with your feelings about your chosen faction? Were you surprised by anything in here?

Nix,

Quiet your going to blow a good thing we got going. The bigger thing is perception of the harder hits coming from mechanics within the game. Additionally we have a master all be it he's slow as all get out that actually ups those defensive numbers by 2. So yeah as always let's not let math get in the way of perception or cloud the issues.

Arcanists def was a nice change of pace for me a resser player.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

Could be:

Master's DF in game (Raw Stat highest to lowest)

1. Df 8 - Perdita / Lilith
   
2. Df 6 - Colette / Som'er / Viktoria
   
3. Df 5 - Marcus / Justice / Zoraida / Hamelin
   
4. Df 4 - Criid / LCB / McMourning / Seamus
   
5. Df 3 - Rasputina / Hoffman / Nicodem
   
6. Df 2 - Pandora / Dreamer / Leveticus / Kirai
   

Keep in mind that several of these masters have other defenses, these are just raw stats. From the looks of this list, Ressers seem to suffer not coming in until they get to an "average" Df 4 and then fill out the lower levels. At the same token, the lowest DF Masters all have some sort of hyper protection as well. (Pandora - opposed WP and push, Dreamer - cannot be targeted, Levi - likes to die, Kirai - seishin)

Its a good point that the impression for bad defense in the game might be just from the Masters themselves, as the Masters are fairly memorable within the game. This could sway the whole perception away from actuality fairly quickly.

this is the genius of the perception. The minions work best with the masters, and the masters can easily be brought down by combination of little to no df, and small soulstone pools. That is why I yearn for a universal soulstone cache for all masters, That way no one can cry on it, and I'd like to see lower def masters gain additional mitgation, oh wait everyone has that but seamus.

[nix]

It was pointed out to me today on the way to a tournament that I am a "woman of promiscuous values" when it comes to my interests. I made the comment that I seem to be drawn to a closeted fascination for Ressers, and it was said that I have a not-exactly-hidden fascination for anyone who complains about the game. Especially when those complaints are blanket complaints like "our faction sucks".

I need to keep my nose in my own factions... Guild, Neverborn, and some Arcanists.

*grin*

[Forar]

Don't be confused by these useless stats! Guild is clearly the greatest faction!

2012!!!!

The year of the Ram!!!

Oh, no argument. I've snagged all 4 masters and have fielded 3 of them to date (have yet to actually use LJ), with a little dabbling in Arcanists (Ramos and Kaeris).

My friends just seem to be continually astounded by the base stats (DF, WP, CB) on the work horse 4-5'ish SS Guild minions.

Hence the smugness to see that (before all other factors are accounted for) that the Guild isn't the top of the heap, at least by those base numbers they seem so concerned by.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Forar