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Seamus - What works?


Jswiers
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So having had a little poke round the forum, I cannot find the answer to my question in anywhere immediately apparent.

I shall thus ask it here in a roundabout fashion:

I have done a Kirai crew, and found her to be a little on the overpowered side. At least while my circle of friends learns to play the game. Too much running through walls and replacing dead my own dead models with new models for their liking I think.

Due to this, I grabbed the Seamus boxed set, and the Molly boxed set, with an air to adding her to him.

Turns out that the molly set seems a bit of a waste, and I could have done with just getting molly. But I digress.

I like the theme of Seamus. Him and his dead working girls. I was therefore going to get 2 dead doxies and add them to him, plus his totem.

-------

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

Copycat Killer [2ss]

Molly Squidpiddge [9ss]

2x Dead Doxy [10ss]

Madame Sybelle [6ss]

2x Rotten Belles [8ss]

-----

This was what I came up with. It seems very light on models though (presumably because molly is devouring points).

Is there anything else *in theme* (Its important to me, I don't just want any old model in there) that is missing from this? Would you do something differently?

Will I need extras of any models in case of raising extras?

Any help would be much appreciated.

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Personally I'd drop Molly for bête noire and cck for avatar and throw myself in there. With those modifications I think it's a fine list. Not using any of those cookie cutters, but as good as it gets while keeping in theme. Bête might not have fluff reasons...but she's a woman with a very 'ghastly' methodology. And she adds nice punch to your otherwise soft and sort of supporty list.

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Rogue Necromany + Grave Spirit is a nice combo. ;-) If you want to hang onto the CC, attach a GS to Molly. If Molly is on the board you can summon in Sybelle and Doxies to your hearts content as well.

With what you have/are planning on getting a nice starting crew could be:

Ressurectionists Crew - 40 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter -- 6 Pool

Copycat Killer [2ss]

Molly Squidpiddge [9ss]

Grave Spirit [1ss]

Madame Sybelle [6ss]

Rogue Necromancy [10ss]

Rotten Belles [4ss]

Rotten Belles [4ss]

Another option would be to drop the CC for another GS to attach to Molly. Also net you another ss for your pool.

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Out of curiosity what are people finding their copycat killers are doing for them in a game?

I think ive mastered nico enough to move onto my next master and its seamus, ive played 3 games with the cck and it doesnt really do much for me. Basically it takes out their totem and thats about it.

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Out of curiosity... Why are you pre-building a list?

I thought you choose your Faction, then flip a strategy, then build a list?

You do...but some people like to have prebuilt lists because they're powerful and some people build reactionary lists to scenario/opponent. Some people also take the middle route and have a pre-built core and switch models in and out as needed. It comes down to a matter of personal choice really.

Out of curiosity what are people finding their copycat killers are doing for them in a game?

I think ive mastered nico enough to move onto my next master and its seamus, ive played 3 games with the cck and it doesnt really do much for me. Basically it takes out their totem and thats about it.

the CCK adds an additional .50 cal Flintlock to my crew. Also, on occasion I can use him to swap places with Seamus and grant him more mobility than he has without. It's also not half bad for secondary castings of Undead Psychosis...

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Out of curiosity... Why are you pre-building a list?

I thought you choose your Faction, then flip a strategy, then build a list?

This isnt an amazing answer but... because we dont do that.

Everyone is looking to have an all rounder 35 pt group, not to tailor per game. Other games have made our group plenty wary of tailoring.

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I will pretty much echo what Sandwich has put down for choices.

As for the CCK I generally dont use him but he is a fun little guy that can give an element of board control with the second flintlock shot and some additional movement abilities for Seamus with mistaken identity. Focus on shooting big low Df targets with him when using his shot. I generally find more utility in the Avatar and/or Grave Spirit though.

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This isnt an amazing answer but... because we dont do that.

Everyone is looking to have an all rounder 35 pt group, not to tailor per game. Other games have made our group plenty wary of tailoring.

The thing is that other games are not applicable in the case of Malifaux objectives. You are REALLY best off tailoring your crew to your strat and schemes. All comer lists in Malifaux are at a disadvantage more than any other miniature game there is.

You might THINK that everything is ok because you play a lot of one-off games where you can do things like take Bodyguard and Holdout every single game, but you are just masking the weakness of a single list by doing that and the moment you try to do anything even close to a tournament where you need a diversity of strats and schemes, you will die.

There was another thread floating around discussing when people "got" malifaux and felt that their "skill" had increased. Even a cursory read of that will show just how many players are pointing out that in Malifaux its the "tailoring" to the strats and schemes and then focusing on their accomplishment that are KEY to success in the game.

Don't let success in a small pool of static lists trick you. Expand your mind! :)

EDIT: I would also say that once you get used to it, that it becomes a very fun component of the game to find niche uses for models that would never have a place in an all-comer list.

Edited by Gruesome
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The thing is that other games are not applicable in the case of Malifaux objectives. You are REALLY best off tailoring your crew to your strat and schemes. All comer lists in Malifaux are at a disadvantage more than any other miniature game there is.

Your argument is facile. If I were to enter a tournament this is entirely true. If I am content to play, as my group is, using pre-picked lists, at 35 points, adhearing to the theme (eg. only belles in seamus, no wierd ghosts or frankensteins cropping up) there is a completely acceptable ballance between our lists, and no need for optimising, powergaming, list switching or similar. Semi-Casual play is preferable to Competitive play in our group.

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Your argument is facile. If I were to enter a tournament this is entirely true. If I am content to play, as my group is, using pre-picked lists, at 35 points, adhearing to the theme (eg. only belles in seamus, no wierd ghosts or frankensteins cropping up) there is a completely acceptable ballance between our lists, and no need for optimising, powergaming, list switching or similar. Semi-Casual play is preferable to Competitive play in our group.

I was just explaining the intent of the game and the reason for the game mechanics including crew construction after strategies.

You said "Other games have made our group plenty wary of tailoring."

I was responding to that.

Play however you want, not here to argue with you.

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Lol, looks like I started a little flame war. Fortunately it died off. Ive used Doxies quite a bit and I love them. Getting the 7Ca when casting inviting approach has achieved me more Vp's than I can count. Last game I had Plant evidence. I didnt have any night terrors at the time but I took.

Seamus

Molly

Sybelle

Rotten Belles x2

Doxy

Carrion Effigy.

The +4Wk between Seamus and Molly boosting belles is amazing. With Proper placement I had Seamus Womanizer a doxy, Seamus moved up in a way that when the Doxy would activate she would benefit of both seamus and molly's boost. She moved 9, inviting approached a mature neph with a 19, walked towards him, got my free shot off, did a point, then the last AP i spent planting evidence. It was just so awesome.

You just gotta wrap around just how mobile they are and how survivable they are when in a belle mob. Doxies are too cool.

Edited by Blog
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Your argument is facile. If I were to enter a tournament this is entirely true. If I am content to play, as my group is, using pre-picked lists, at 35 points, adhearing to the theme (eg. only belles in seamus, no wierd ghosts or frankensteins cropping up) there is a completely acceptable ballance between our lists, and no need for optimising, powergaming, list switching or similar. Semi-Casual play is preferable to Competitive play in our group.

Out of curiosity, do you play with Strategies? One of the big things about Malifaux is that it's designed for your crew to be picked after you know your strategy. Reversing that leaves you with the potential for a crew to be stuck with a strategy they're completely unsuited for. Rasputina facing a Treasure Hunt or Plant Evidence comes to mind, but there are plenty of other examples.

If you're just playing "kill the other guy" then yeah, fixed lists can work better since everyone basically knows the objective. For me, I love strategies and schemes, and dynamic crews are a big part of keeping that fun. Most strategies are balanced around the idea that they can be accomplished well by a faction, but not necessarily every possible crew in that faction.

On the original topic: I like the Hanged with Seamus a lot. They both have a lot of Wp manipulation tools, and the Hanged is one of the few models in the game that can provide game-long debuffs to targets, and good ones at that. If you want to keep to the Seamus' Girls theme, check out the Gallows Hag for Empire of the Dead - she's a perfect Hanged model.

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Out of curiosity, do you play with Strategies? One of the big things about Malifaux is that it's designed for your crew to be picked after you know your strategy. Reversing that leaves you with the potential for a crew to be stuck with a strategy they're completely unsuited for. Rasputina facing a Treasure Hunt or Plant Evidence comes to mind, but there are plenty of other examples.

If you're just playing "kill the other guy" then yeah, fixed lists can work better since everyone basically knows the objective. For me, I love strategies and schemes, and dynamic crews are a big part of keeping that fun. Most strategies are balanced around the idea that they can be accomplished well by a faction, but not necessarily every possible crew in that faction.

Two things with regard to this:

1. Factions become more rounded when someone realises they'll need to do objectives.

2. Given you'll play someone you know hundreds of times over the course of a few years, the fact that a faction struggles at one mission but excels at another can be quite refreshing. Playing a hard fought game trying to do something you're good at once in a while is enjoyable. Getting to smash some face because your mission is easyer this time round is fun from time to time too...

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Your argument is facile. If I were to enter a tournament this is entirely true. If I am content to play, as my group is, using pre-picked lists, at 35 points, adhearing to the theme (eg. only belles in seamus, no wierd ghosts or frankensteins cropping up) there is a completely acceptable ballance between our lists, and no need for optimising, powergaming, list switching or similar. Semi-Casual play is preferable to Competitive play in our group.

+1

Finally, a purist.

Stick to YOUR story. Malifaux is most fun when you can imagine the scenario playing out on the board in front of you.

Yes, you are at a disadvantage. Yes, you will lose to people who like to take the latest tricks. So what? It is a miniatures game. I would rather have an opponent that has a story to tell than some guy who, shockingly, brings Von schill half the time.

Cheers.

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1. Factions become more rounded when someone realises they'll need to do objectives.

2. Given you'll play someone you know hundreds of times over the course of a few years, the fact that a faction struggles at one mission but excels at another can be quite refreshing. Playing a hard fought game trying to do something you're good at once in a while is enjoyable. Getting to smash some face because your mission is easyer this time round is fun from time to time too...

I think that over time you'll find the opposite. There are indeed a number of crew/strategy combinations that are so bad it's a foregone conclusion. Competitive or not, that's not really fun for anyone. So what happens, in my experience, is that people tend to drift to a few very generalist crews who aren't hosed at anything. I want a fun, challenging game - taking two hours to ritually stomp Rasputina into the ground in a foregone conclusion because she flipped Plant Evidence isn't an enjoyable game.

Personally, I think picking crews after you know the objectives is one of the best ideas Malifaux ever came up with. It's not just "Two random armies just happened to be out walking and stumbled into each other". It's "Our contact in the Guild warehouse says they're shipping an artifact they pulled out of the sewers. Colette, you're the subtle one, think you can snatch it?" It has a touch of realism to it that I like, and an inherent narrative feel that makes a lot more sense than every battle starting with "Well, we don't know what they're going to have to do, but let's send Seamus."

Up to you as you like to play, of course, but IMHO it's going to lead to more bad games and misses out on one of the more unique aspects of Malifaux.

And, finally, sticking to theme is what you make of it :) A Hanged may not normally fit Seamus' theme, but you can use the Gallows Hag, or I frequently imagine one just drawn to the suffering and death that follows him everywhere, with Seamus occasionally trying to shoo them away. This is another thing Malifaux's lore excels at - there are more cross-factional connections in Malifaux's fluff than I think I've seen in any other minis game world ever. This gives a lot of flexibility in crew choice; honestly, if anything, giving Seamus nothing but his Belles to work with, ever, is probably less fluffy than mixing in some other models.

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