McMourning, Passion for his Work and Slow

[Toonook]

The question is: If McMourning has slow, can he spend 1 body part to remove the slow, then a second body part to gain fast?

The Theory: look at the example "Action Modifier Examples" on page 34.

"Lilith has (+1) Fast and Mortimer casts (-1) slow twice on Lilith. The first Slow cancels Lilith's Fast, and the second Slow nets Lilith (-1) on her next activation." It then goes on to explain that the Student of Conflict can't give Perdita Fast because you cannot stack Fast.

Therefore, reversing the process, McMourning gives himself Fast, which cancels the slow. He now has nothing. He then gives himself Fast again, which means he now has Fast for this activation. He couldn't continue giving it to himself because he has already gained Fast to his talents for this turn.

Normally when a model has +1 Fast the Slow would negate it, but McMourning has a way of gaining Fast. In essence he's adding the Talent (+1) Fast to his stat card, much like a model would add the Sacrifice ability when Killjoy is hired. You can't stack Fast, but when you use it to remove Slow you don't gain it so spending another body part doesn't stack it, it just allows you to have the (+1) Fast.

Edit: I guess, by the same logic, Reckless would allow Gremlins and Pigs with Slow to suffer two wounds and gain Fast.

[Marcalla]

The effects of slow and fast don't stack any longer.

As far as I know of. If you have slow and gain fast you still have both -1 slow and +1 fast. adding another +1 fast doesn't help you. Just as adding another -1 slow doesn't mean you loose another AP.

[Toonook]

Nope, look again at page 34 "If a model affected by Fast gains Slow, or vice versa, the two cancel each other out and both effects are removed. A model is not affected by Fast and Slow at the same time."

[Oscilioth]

I think that sound about right, page 34 almost explicitly states that they way it works and then goes on to give an example that is in favour of this. If you have Fast and Slow you lose both, therefore you can gain either again.

I agree with you Toonook.

[Lucidicide]

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?28735-FAST-talent-and-Slow-Effect&p=366100&viewfull=1#post366100

Enjoy!

[Toonook]

Wait, does that validate my argument?

"Originally Posted by WEiRD sKeTCH

It means a Fast model gets hit with a Slow Effect and the cancel each other out. *Poof* Fast and Slow are both gone on that model.

If it gets hit with another Fast effect, it's then Fast again.

Likewise if that same model that had the two cancelled out got hit with a Slow effect, it would then have Slow."

Looks like it does. Victory for McMourning!

[Jester262]

looks to me like you can do it since the model is no longer fast or slow.

[Cunning]

Passion for his work is +1 right? That means you can only do it once per activation as far as I'm aware.

[Toonook]

Passion for his work is +1 right? That means you can only do it once per activation as far as I'm aware.

Again, I disagree.

Nowhere in the rule book does it say you can only use a (+1) once. You usually only use them once because they only provide a single AP. On page 20 it says: "Action modifiers with the same name do not stack (see page 34)" With McMourning's +1, you're not stacking it because the first time you use it you're not gaining an action modifier, but rather removing a different modifier. It's different to just a plain (+1) Fast, because that would be removed from the card temporarily by the Slow. McMourning's ability reads "(+1) Passion for his Work: Discard one body part counter, this model receives Fast". After using that +1 I don't have Fast, I simply no longer have Slow. By using it a second time I'm not stacking anything, ergo there is nothing prohibiting its use.

[Cunning]

So you're saying a model with relentless can keep moving as long as it has cards to discard? Or Levi can walk as much as he wants as long as he has wounds to spare?

[Toonook]

No, continuing on with my McMourning analogy since they're all basically the same effect just different mechanics. Normally you just have 2 AP. McMourning can spend a body part to gain fast. In effect his card now has fast on it for the rest of this activation. Even if he spends that AP he is currently affected by fast and cannot continue to spend body parts because that would stack fast.

When affected by slow, his card basically gains (-1) Slow. After spending the body part to gain Fast, he is now in the position of no longer being affected by either as they cancel out. He then spends another body part and now is affected by (+1) Fast for the rest of this activation. He couldn't then spend yet another body part as this would stack the ability as it is still there.

---------- Post added at 10:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

In another example, if Bete Noir had Slow, and a Student of Conflict did its all action to give her Fast, she would be back to normal. If a living model died within 3", Feed on Death would kick in and she would gain Fast. McMourning spending body parts is no different, it just allows him to complete both steps himself.

[Cunning]

Yes but +1 Passion for His Work has an effect. This effect is to give McMourning fast.

Relentless has an effect. This effect is to let the model walk if the controller discards a card.

If you're saying Passion for his Work can be used mulitple times then why can't Relentless as they're both +1 abilities just with different effects.

[Toonook]

I guess so, don't play any models with Relentless. Let me find a model with it to read the wording.

---------- Post added at 10:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------

Bloody hell, who has relentless lol. Can someone post the exact wording?

[Lucidicide]

(+1) Relentless: Discard 1 Control Card. This model immediately Walks.

---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 AM ----------

Unfortunately, I think CunningStunt is right. I think that you basically are effected by the (+1) Action as well as what it gives you.

So a Slow Gremlin that goes Reckless does have the Fast drop off, but is also effected by (+1) Reckless, and therefore cannot stack that action.

[Toonook]

Ok I can't find relentless, but I did find Leveticus:

(+1) Necromantic Sacrifice: This model suffers 2 Wd. This model may immediately move up to it's Wk. This model can reduce it's Wd to 0 in this way. I see no reason why Leveticus can't continue to throw wounds away to make walks.

[Lucidicide]

Ok I can't find relentless, but I did find Leveticus:

(+1) Necromantic Sacrifice: This model suffers 2 Wd. This model may immediately move up to it's Wk. This model can reduce it's Wd to 0 in this way. I see no reason why Leveticus can't continue to throw wounds away to make walks.

Because that would be broken good? I can pretty much promise you it doesn't work that way.

[Toonook]

I refer you to the Nurse argument that you can be affected by multiple effects of the same spell, since the effect of the spell is marked in bold. You aren't affected by Masssive Dose but rather Painkillers, Speed or Stimulants allowing you to be affected multiple times. The ability is Passion for his Work, the effect is Fast.

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

Because that would be broken good? I can pretty much promise you it doesn't work that way.

Perhaps not in that case because Necromantic Sacrifice would be the effect granted, but like I gave in that Nurse example, Passion for his Work provides a sub-effect in a way.

[Lucidicide]

I refer you to the Nurse argument that you can be affected by multiple effects of the same spell, since the effect of the spell is marked in bold. You aren't affected by Masssive Dose but rather Painkillers, Speed or Stimulants allowing you to be affected multiple times. The ability is Passion for his Work, the effect is Fast.

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

Perhaps not in that case because Necromantic Sacrifice would be the effect granted, but like I gave in that Nurse example, Passion for hi Work provides a sub-effect in a way.

You Cast Massive Dose. You are effected by Painkillers.

You are effected by Relentless. It gives you Fast.

[Cunning]

But Massive Dose is a spell.

Passion for His Work is the name of a Specfic Action.

You cant use the rules of one to argue to rules of the other. They are not the same.

Page 33 of the rules manual:

Regardless of their source, specific Actions do not stack.

I.e. You can't do them twice in the same activation.

Edited April 19, 2012 by CunningStunt

[Toonook]

I still don't buy it. You don't become effected by Relentless or Passion for his Work, nor gain any ability of either name, they are an action you take to become effected by Fast.

---------- Post added at 11:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

But Massive Dose is a spell.

Passion for His Work is the name of a Specfic Action.

You cant use the rules of one to argue to rules of the other. They are not the same.

Page 33 of the rules manual:

I.e. You can't do them twice in the same activation.

Sorry you posted that just before my previous post. This would be the way around it working like that I'd suppose. The only thing that confuses me is you gain an ability that is immediately removed. You don't gain fast AND passion for his work. I'm unconvinced but it's the best counter I've seen yet.

[Cunning]

Well I guess we'll have to wait for a Marshal to come along then.

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

I still don't buy it. You don't become effected by Relentless or Passion for his Work, nor gain any ability of either name, they are an action you take to become effected by Fast.

---------- Post added at 11:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

Sorry you posted that just before my previous post. This would be the way around it working like that I'd suppose. The only thing that confuses me is you gain an ability that is immediately removed. You don't gain fast AND passion for his work. I'm unconvinced but it's the best counter I've seen yet.

That's the thing though. If he just had an ability that said he can gain fast by discarding a BP then that's one thing and it would work as you suggest. But because it's a specific action instead you can only use it once per activation.

[Toonook]

Yeah actually I think you may have it there, while a part of me hopes it works out the way I'd hoped, I think we've gotten to the bottom of this one. Well played sir!

Bet the rules marshals wish every question got resolved by itself like this lol.

[LordZombie]

Another thing to rememeber is the fact you are gaining fast, it is just being cancelled out. If you didn't gain fast, you never cancelled slow, so you had to at some point in the timing gained fast. Just because the ability is getting cancelled does not mean it didn't happen. It would be neat if it worked that way, but I don't think so. It is nice to have an ability to cancel slow.

[CannonFodder]

But Massive Dose is a spell.

Passion for His Work is the name of a Specfic Action.

You cant use the rules of one to argue to rules of the other. They are not the same.

Page 33 of the rules manual:

I.e. You can't do them twice in the same activation.

As for the stacking on Gremlins with reckless... I think you can technically take the damage multiple times, but the fast doesn't stack, so you get a max of extra 1 AP. So i think the same would apply to McM. You can burn off body parts, but get a max of 1 AP. Now if this same rules are applied on Levi, I see the potentially argument that you get a lot of extra movements, but on the other-hand you can also state the extra moves don't stack, but you can take as much damage as you want.

Now all in all, a rules marshal should make a ruling, and just not to break the game I think its fair to say that all the +1 abilities are limited to once per turn. Its in the spirit of the intended of the rules. Otherwise significant rework is needed.

[TimeLapse]

I know that this does not answer the question but you could add a student of conflect in your lists for the games where you are worried about slow, it could give you another sorce of fast that would then get rid of slow and then you can use a body part to gain fast for reals.

[Issalbotproto]

so everyone read pg. 33 specific action points, as I read it says you gain 1 additonal ap to use for that action (i.e +1 ap that can be used to discard a body part to gain fast) if it said +2 passion for his work he would be able to do it twice