morpsele Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Hi had my first game against Hoffman yesterday. I had a Night Terror that needed to be killed by Hoffman. I was wondering if i get points when hoffman attacques via a construc close combat or not. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Buhallin Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Whoops, yeah, didn't go back far enough in my posts Definitely just a slip of the tongue. Should have stuck with "act". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Guy in Suit Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 morpsele Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 And i think it is because it's considered that the construct attaking me is the one doing the killing. Thank you i was not 100% sure. He still ended up killing my guy with hoffman itself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Fastenhate Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Yes, the puppet is the one doing the killing. I believe that Hoffman cannot use soulstones for the puppet attacks either unless the puppet has the use soulstone ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 magicpockets Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Are you SURE "no" is the right answer? If Zoraida obeys An enemy model to do reclaim Malifaux she gets the credit for it (iirc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Raising Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 yep the puppet do the killing but using the hoffman AP and in hoffman activation. I think he should get the credit of it. Are we sure we cant spent soulstones when using a puppet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 morpsele Posted April 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Hum Nice a debate. Thank you guy's i'm still pretty new to the game only like 25 games played lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Buhallin Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Are you SURE "no" is the right answer? If Zoraida obeys An enemy model to do reclaim Malifaux she gets the credit for it (iirc) Obey makes the model activate as part of your crew, so you can Reclaim. But it's still the Obeyed model taking the action, not Zoraida. Frame for Murder requires the master to be the one who does the killing, which Hoffman is not. Same would apply for Obey, actually - if you Obey a model to kill the Frame for Murder target, the caster isn't the one who did the killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kadeton Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Hmm... Hoffman has still taken an action that has resulted in the death of the Frame for Murder target. I can see this one needing official clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 13th Warrior Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 I presume this would go the same way as with a Stitched Together - it may be your action that caused it to be sacrificed at the end of the turn, but you still don't get Slaughter points for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 morpsele Posted April 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 For slaughter it is specified that you need to kill and that sacrificed model don't count toward the wining condition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Guy in Suit Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Are you SURE "no" is the right answer? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 13th Warrior Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 For slaughter it is specified that you need to kill and that sacrificed model don't count toward the wining conditionErm, no: RM p93 - Slaughter Victory If the total Soulstone cost of enemy models you have killed or sacrificed... Which is why the Stitched are such PITA in Slaughter - it was ruled that they don't count as killed / sacrificed by you, and it's why I suspect the ruling would go the same way for Obey or Puppet killings in Frame for Murder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kadeton Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 The implication of that would also mean that, for example, casting Lure on a model and making it walk into a Shafted marker and die would not get you any points for Slaughter, because it's the target model taking an action that gets itself killed. That sounds like bollocks to me. The Stitched are a different matter, because when you kill them, they don't die. Later on, they sacrifice themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 WindlordRyu Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 If I'm not mistaken, the Construct affected by Machine Puppet would be the attacker in the resulting duel. Therefor the credit of the kill should go to the Construct, not Hoffman. And if something dies from a Shafted marker it was killed by an action taken by the Crooked Man, not whatever got it into the marker. I would assume shafted markers work like Sonia's Flame Wall, which apparently counts towards her manifestation requirements (which basically means that she's the one doing the damage). Can't find the ruling with this search function though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Buhallin Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 The implication of that would also mean that, for example, casting Lure on a model and making it walk into a Shafted marker and die would not get you any points for Slaughter, because it's the target model taking an action that gets itself killed. All kinds of things wrong with this. The target model for Lure doesn't take an action - it gets pushed up to its Walk. If it hits a Shafted during that movement, then it's the Shafted that's doing the damage and killing it, not the walk. Just like if you walk away from something with Wicked that hits and kills a model via disengaging strike, it wasn't the active model that killed itself. In general, the Malifaux rules don't go beyond proximate cause. When a model is controlled via Obey, Alpha, Machine Puppet, whatever, that model is the one doing the acting. Credit for whatever it does during that action goes to that model, and its current controller (player). You don't step back any and look at why that model is doing what it is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 The implication of that would also mean that, for example, casting Lure on a model and making it walk into a Shafted marker and die would not get you any points for Slaughter, because it's the target model taking an action that gets itself killed. That sounds like bollocks to me. The Stitched are a different matter, because when you kill them, they don't die. Later on, they sacrifice themselves. When you Lure someone, you take an action and the effect is to force a push on your opponent. The action is yours, the model is yours and the effect is yours - it just applies to the target. On the other hand when that model walks into shafted mark and dies because of it, is it the Lure causing the death or the test failed by the model itself? I'd say Shafted Marks themselves are in danger of never scoring you VP for Slaughter, due to how they work, but that is unrelated to Lure. Obey makes a model actually do an action (not sure why Buhalin said it activates - technically speaking it doesn't count for an activation, right?). There is different subject doing the killing/walking etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Issalbotproto Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Well the thing is it says Target construct within 4" makes a strike, it states that that model is making the strike not Hoffman though it is his action it is not his strike, so if it kills the model then it has been killed by the construct not Hoffman; Hoffman basically pointed at the poor bat and said "kill that." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kadeton Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Man, I must have been half asleep when I posted that. Anyway, in a friendly game, I would certainly allow Hoffman to take credit for the kill, since he's directly controlling the model making the strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Buhallin Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Obey makes a model actually do an action (not sure why Buhalin said it activates - technically speaking it doesn't count for an activation' date=' right?).[/quote'] Uhm, I did? Can't seem to find that I referenced the "acting" model, but never used activation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Uhm, I did? Can't seem to find that I referenced the "acting" model, but never used activation. It was a slip then, not an intended wording, so never mind. For reference, here's the quote: Obey makes the model activate as part of your crew, so you can Reclaim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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morpsele
Hi had my first game against Hoffman yesterday. I had a Night Terror that needed to be killed by Hoffman.
I was wondering if i get points when hoffman attacques via a construc close combat or not.
Thank you
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