[Errata Request] Pandora

[96p]

Now that we finally got that shiny bury and Dreamer errata, I'd like to express my wish for an errata on 2 of Pandoras skills that keep getting abused (yes by me too... ashes on my head)

(1) Dementia: Target ENEMY model must succeed in a Wp13 Duel before taking any Action, or the Action automatically fails.

Keeping sorrows or totems from casting Dementia on Pandora making her literally fast as a lightning bolt.

Friendly Woes in base contact with PANDORA receive +1 Wp, receive the effects of any spells affecting it, and may use its (0) Actions as if they were their own.

Keeps the Doppelganger from copiing this ability to enable any woe to use his (0)Mimic

[Mike3838]

I've never really struggled to get her moving using Incite/Pacify on enemy models only. Turn 1 is usually a bit slow, but with 12" range she can usually get a bead on something in Turn 2 and then can usually get wherever on the table she wants to be each turn from then on. Without dementia that is.

Your experience of her Dom might be coloured by your tendency to turtle up in your DZ, which she might struggle to reach just walking. Once enemy models start coming forwards though she's plenty mobile enough.

Mike

[Dumb Luck]

I've never really struggled to get her moving using Incite/Pacify on enemy models only. Turn 1 is usually a bit slow, but with 12" range she can usually get a bead on something in Turn 2 and then can usually get wherever on the table she wants to be each turn from then on. Without dementia that is.

Your experience of her Dom might be coloured by your tendency to turtle up in your DZ, which she might struggle to reach just walking. Once enemy models start coming forwards though she's plenty mobile enough.

Mike

This man knows my secrets! Run!

[Mydnight]

I don't see the Dementia thing being that bad. Now she can't Incite/Pacify her own crew, this her literally her one trick to get anywhere. And it sucks up cards like nothing.

But still, anything that makes her easy Gremlin chow ...

I recall her having a Wk of 3, just like Nico, Raspy, and a few others......just saying ^^'

Also, don't mind me! I'd love to participate in a good Pandora discussion but she is the only master in the game (including the Dreamer pre-errata) who causes me to go all bananas about how she works. Since I don't really have much else to add I'll just sit here on the sidelines and watch the discussion unfold if that's ok with you guys? :-)

[CannonFodder]

After reading this thread and a couple others, I don`t think Pandora should be errated, It should be the Doppelganger. Effectively make Mimic uncopyable and 90% of the abuse goes away. Most abuse is from Sorrow copying Mimic and then copying something else. There is a reason the Doppleganger is Rare1. With Linked on it, the sorrows basically get to use 2 AP of any spell or action on the table, they don`t even have to move because they get pulled around. I m not a huge fan of doppelganger copying Pandora, But its not THAT abusive. A Little abusive, but not THAT abusive. Check out this thread to use this combo for mass obey.

Another option is to give the doppelganger an ability saying it can`t have models linked to it. IT breaks the abuse with minimal rewriting. Plus it kinda fits the theme. Kinda hard to blend in when you have a couple Green spirity things always following you. Call the ability Requires Discretion.

The sorrows already get to copy stuff within limits, which is fair for a 3 point model, Copying anything is where it it breaks out if Niche to being a full blown powerhouse.

Edited March 24, 2012 by CannonFodder

[magicpockets]

^^ Just to add you don't need to be linked to use mimic or emotional trauma.

To be fair, I personally don't think this is such a bad combo considering the DG costs 8ss and each Sorrow costs 3ss on top - and if the DG goes down (which is quite easy if you focus on her) in a heavy Emotional Trauma list then EVERYTHING goes to sh*t for the Pandora player.

I'm not even sure if I'd agree with Dementia being changed having used it a few times and it working against me as much as for me! Although if it isn't RAI then it should get a little nip and tuck.

That said, I'd be surprised if they changed any Book 1 models now...

[the junkie]

Just adding my +1 for the suggested errata. I think is simple yet effective.

Thank you

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

+1 magic, not a lot of significant models in a list like that.

[Dumb Luck]

I recall her having a Wk of 3, just like Nico, Raspy, and a few others......just saying ^^'

I meant anywhere quickly. Slipping to using a Wk3 for the first few turns from zipping across the board on a zero action is pretty huge. Just sayin'.

[Issalbotproto]

I would like to point out... this is the rule discussion forum for clarifications, should this thread not be in the general discussion??

[Glint-Eye]

I agree with you Issalbotproto that this should probably go in the general discussion, but while it's here I'll give some food for thought...

On the subject of Emotional Trauma and some of the other abilities on Pandora, have you ever thought that the game designers originally used "...this model..." rather than the model's name because they planned on possibly using it on future models, kind of like Frozen Heart and the like?

That being said, I would either take Cannon Fodder's suggestion and errata the Doppleganger (My preferred method, but not only this, but future shenanigans as well) or just suck it up and play around it like Magic Pockets suggested.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Glint-Eye

[Q'iq'el]

Then you've never been hit by pacify for 7+ dmg after pandora ran over half the table

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with being hit for 7 dmg from ~18". Many masters can do it and you can defend yourself from Pacify just as well as from other forms of attack. If anything, there are plenty additional restrictions on Pacify which make it easier to defend from than other abilities of this kind (stop it once and Pandora cannot use it again this turn).

[edit:] And I think even an 12" AoE isn't that bad. You know you shouldn't bunch up against Pandora. Even Nicodem can play without risking his crew when facing her (after all he can bring his Aura to bear on minions up to 16" away; not to mention he and his minions generally are high Wp).

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

And the dementia "trick" goes against the spirit of both the abilities it involves. It's clearly not within the designers intent.

I find it very fluffy, and I don't play Pandora.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Mike3838]

Really? Aren't the card-testing effects of Dementia a simulation of the fact that a person affected by it has poor memory and efficacy? And for me Fading Memory pretty clearly refers to the memory of Pandora's attacker failing them. "I though Pandora was there. But she's actually somewhere else".

Not sure how combining those two abilities (a mentally deficient Pandora who constantly forgets where she is) leads to her getting an extra craptonne of movement. Being able to use Fading Memory when no enemies are involved makes no sense.

Mike

[Q'iq'el]

Really? Aren't the card-testing effects of Dementia a simulation of the fact that a person affected by it has poor memory and efficacy? And for me Fading Memory pretty clearly refers to the memory of Pandora's attacker failing them. "I though Pandora was there. But she's actually somewhere else".

Not sure how combining those two abilities (a mentally deficient Pandora who constantly forgets where she is) leads to her getting an extra craptonne of movement. Being able to use Fading Memory when no enemies are involved makes no sense.

Mike

Well, the way I've understood the story from the book 3 is that the stuff Pandora is dabbling in, when manipulating emotions, can be so powerful it overloads her and she crosses the threshold of sheer insanity (hence her avatar). Dementia is like a misstep rather than full-blown insanity overload, but it clearly makes it difficult for her to think and act straight. When she overcomes it though, she can draw more power from it as well.

[magicpockets]

Wow, this could be Wyrd's new game - Fluff Wars

[Calmdown]

Now that we finally got that shiny bury and Dreamer errata, I'd like to express my wish for an errata on 2 of Pandoras skills that keep getting abused (yes by me too... ashes on my head)

Keeping sorrows or totems from casting Dementia on Pandora making her literally fast as a lightning bolt.

Keeps the Doppelganger from copiing this ability to enable any woe to use his (0)Mimic

There are very few things in the game that NEED errata to tone them down.

The errata you're asking for is more 'nice to have' thank anything. Pandora is awesome but her pushing abuse is hardly the worst of what she does.

[Mergoth]

I play Pandora fairly regularly and I don't feel she really needs an errata. Granted, I win most games with her but she suits my playstyle and I play her in a very cagey manner as I fully understand how much trouble she'll be in if she fails a (0) at the wrong time especially if there are blasts on the board, then linking a Doppelgänger and/or Sorrow is suicide.

If all she can get is a Master with a few SS to burn as her first target there's pretty much a 50/50 chance of her first (0) failing and then she's wasted for a turn. Unless your opponent is playing Gremlins - then you're sorted!

[Fetid Strumpet]

I also play Pandora, she suits my playstyle, and let me say I personally, and this is just a matter of opinion, feel that she shouldn't exist in the game as currently written, mainly because of how totally she ignores the rules almost all models follow in Malifaux, in addition to the fact that she can just make you fall back, which is just not fun.

Power level wise I don't know how you'd fix her without a major rewrite, as the issues I mainly have with her is the fact that her web of effects is always active, and in my opinion she should have to activate them. That said, and assuming a major rewrite wasn't in the cards (and even though I don't like her design I don't see how you could justify it honestly) the biggest thing that could and perhaps should be done to her is to slash her starting cache. I'm pretty certain I remember Eric J mentioning during a podcast interview, that perhaps, Pandora's starting Cache didn't need to be that high.

That, actually, would be the best way I think that Wyrd could do some rebalancing in the future, with the least rules changes, when the time comes. Look at all the data and try to best gage a master's relative power level, and then re assign SS caches based on it.

[Issalbotproto]

The most Major thing they need to do is make her not so annoying to play against, at my FLGS we have 2 players that own Pandora, and noone (including myself) wants to play agaisnt their pandoras, its just not enjoyable. there's a distinct difference between a challenge and brain hemorrhage.

[Fetid Strumpet]

And that is the biggest problem with Pandora. She is still in the top master club, and I think, OP, but not in the same class as the Dreamer was. She does at least have weaknesses, which don't require the player using her to make mistakes with, but you have to know how to exploit them, but the biggest issue with Pandora, even more, I feel, than her PL, is how she is such a major Negative Play Experience. I know people who liken playing against Pandora, even when they win, as like going to the dentist. It is something to be endured, gotten through, and forgotten about as soon as possible.

Given that this is a result of how she is designed, I don't know how you'd correct it without basically rebuilding Pandora from Scratch...

Frankly I'm not certain that would be a good idea at this point.

[Guy in Suit]

Pandora should be errata'd to only be allowed when the opponent is fielding Hamelin - and vice versa, of course. That should sort things nicely.

[Guild Monkee]

As annoying as playing pandora is, I think the priority should be sorting out Hamelin. Wyrd seem to be good at addressing player concerns but they take time to play test, etc before being rolled out. Eventually I'm sure they'll tweak Pandora.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm actually agreeing with that. Much as I dislike Pandora's design I think Hamelin needs it more, and Pandora should most likely be saved for the future, of Malifaux 2.0.

[Lordgimpet]

Hmm Personally I don't think she is as bad as many seem to say. especially if taken into the context of the game played properly as in the book and not like most down where I play who tend to for some reason just play this game like its 40k or warmahords.

To fully set up the mimic cheese can waste turns of activations, where your opponant can just ignore you and claim objectives etc.

I find even the Dememtia play more often is more risky than the benifits. With smart play you can just rely on the pacify/incite to get around without it.

Also unlike say Dreamer or Hamlin where they have been winning events, I have not heard of Pandora taking top honors constantly using just this tactic of mimic and or demntia. Most of the time when she has won an event its unique builds like the old Filth list etc.

That said were I asked to change something, All I would do is adjust the wording of Emotional Trauma from (....while within 12" of this model....) to (...while within 12" of Pandora...)

this will prevent ET from being copied, It won't change anything style wise with pandora crews. Just tone down the damage at 12". while you will have to get closer for emotial stress to kick in at 3" but this will also put you in a risky close range of other crews.

[magicpockets]

Also unlike say Dreamer or Hamlin where they have been winning events, I have not heard of Pandora taking top honors constantly using just this tactic of mimic and or demntia. Most of the time when she has won an event its unique builds like the old Filth list etc.

That used to be my old tournament list (Pandy, Poltergeist, DG, 2x Sorrows, Jackdaw, 1x Stitched) and I won every game no matter what just by mimicking Emotional Trauma -

"I have four lots of Emotional Trauma affecting you, now meet JackDaw so you can't cheat or use soulstones...and here's comes Pandora :)"

Some people were glad I went to Hamelin *wink*

[Q'iq'el]

You always have to allow for players not knowing what they really want. "Frustrating" and "annoying" are not only very highly subjective (plenty of players love it seeing challenge in the atypical playstyle), but on the top of that players who complain about such frustrating irregularities, from my personal experience, often abandon gaming systems that get too bland complaining about lack of diversity. So what was the problem, huh?

Not saying it applies to anyone lodging complaints in the thread, but I've seen it with Tau in 40K and with some WHFB armies (VC, Demons) and in the end this is one type of complaint company should never ever take into consideration. There's completely nothing wrong about exceptions to the rules and crews that put the system on its head, as long as they are well balanced.