New to Malifaux and even more new to Sonnia HELP!

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hey I'm basically a brand new Malifaux player that first picked up the Dreamer then realized that he was extremely overpowered so I stopped playing him, my friends that I play with didn't like getting tabled by turn 4 when I was "doing bad." So instead I've switched over to Sonnia because she just really has a "flare" that I really like. So far I've picked up her box, Sue, and a Witchling Handler. I'm trying to build a 35ss list for an upcoming league, but I just don't know what to take and what to leave. I don't really have any problem picking up new models, but don't want to buy ones that I won't use. So any help you all could offer would be great.

Cheers,

Nebu

[Fetid Strumpet]

I feel you should pick up her avatar, she has one of the, if not the best avatar in the game. I'd also direct you to the dead tau project, where Bill Anderson, forum name Nix, has some remarkably good battle reports and crew builds using Sonnia and her avatar.

[von Clausewitz]

The thing about guild, and Sonnia in particular, is that you can't build an "all comers" list. I play Sonnia more than any other master and other than her avatar my lists are rarely similar to one another. That being said, the minions I take most often are Santiago, Austringers, Witchling Stalkers and Desperate Mercs. Exorcist, Executioner, Judge, Lucius (and a contingent of guardsmen), Von Schill, Sue, Nino and Witchling Handler all have a place in Sonnia lists. Samael seems tempting but his lack of reliability (either he puts the hurt on your opponent or goes down in flames) makes him a sketchy choice for his 8 stone cost.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I've seen everyone's distaste for Samael, but in truth I just don't see where it's coming from. Granted Flaming Bullets needs a 9 to go off, but even still he's still one of the best Master killers I've ever seen. All you have to do is cheat Flaming Bullets and fire off a shot, or if you get lucky two, and poof the master is either burning through Stones like crazy or is dying. Could you guys explain to me how that alone is not worth the 8 Stones that he costs? If nothing else he really can be used to force your enemies Master to move however you want him to. Or am I just blowing up smoke like when I looked at Coppelius and thought that he was crap?

[Soundwave]

I've seen everyone's distaste for Samael, but in truth I just don't see where it's coming from. Granted Flaming Bullets needs a 9 to go off, but even still he's still one of the best Master killers I've ever seen. All you have to do is cheat Flaming Bullets and fire off a shot, or if you get lucky two, and poof the master is either burning through Stones like crazy or is dying. Could you guys explain to me how that alone is not worth the 8 Stones that he costs? If nothing else he really can be used to force your enemies Master to move however you want him to. Or am I just blowing up smoke like when I looked at Coppelius and thought that he was crap?

Check out this [thread=29687]thread[/thread] for some general discussion regarding Samael. Good ole´Sam.

[Clousseau]

Personally I find that a lot of the 6-8 point models tend to die quite quickly, though the points you've made about Samuel are valid, and useful to some strategies.

For other strategies I've found that strength in numbers works well and a crew of 4 point minions (Witchlings, Death Marshals and/or Guardsmen) works very well.

Austringers are de riguer for Guild for good reason.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Sonnia in particular, is that you can't build That being said, the minions I take most often are Santiago, Austringers, Witchling Stalkers and Desperate Mercs. Exorcist, Executioner, Judge, Lucius (and a contingent of guardsmen), Von Schill, Sue, Nino and Witchling Handler all have a place in Sonnia lists.

I would cut sue and exexutioner from list. Executioner can be good with lucius and a student but holds little to no synergy for Sonia, his best quality is a bodyguard with Sonia.

Alright so to build on this 2 dogs is one of our best options. Death marshals can provide some hurt. Type can provide similiar range support and has better survivability than nino, he is a finesse model, not the best option. Guardian can make a mobile armored tank, slows you down a bit but can really help. Student is great for making lore count.

35 list

Sonia 8 stones

Student

Lucius

2 dogs

2 Witchling

2 desp mercs

Or cut a merc and Witchling to take one of the many 7ss minions, i like judge and santiago the best.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Truthfully even after reading that thread I still really like Sam, but then again I haven't been able to use him, or my Sonnia crew, yet. So in truth I'm still a little out on whether or not he's worth using. I like his model and I love his ability to drop Masters/Casters, I have to play against Colette a lot. So I think I'll try him out a few times before I make the final decision. But what about the amount of Soul Stones I should have for different sized games? Does Sonnia need all 8 stones or can she get by with less? If less, how many would the be the least that you would run with?

[Hjelmen]

If you take Guild Hounds, take more than two. Two of them makes it far to easy to make them insignificant and removing their extra Wk action.

[Odin1981]

So outside of sonnia what do you have that can actually do damage to stuff in that list?

To neb:

I wouldn't reccomend samuel with sonnia due to lack of obey unless you want to hire minion hamelin but he isn't cheap 10ss out of faction. When you are learning sonnia I would say not to go under 6-7 stones however once you are familiar with her I've found it's not hard to get by with 5 with her (however this is very matchup dependant). Against Dreamer/Kirai/Colette/Z with colludi I would not reccomend anything less than 7ss against them but probably 8.

The dogs/watcher's comes down to personal preferance they are really similar. Dogs are better at treasure hunt but watchers can drop terrifing off enemy models or harmless and have abilities to manipulate your library when they are not going after vp's.

With the exception of perdita I have found all my guild lists generally contain Santiago, watcher, and guardian if that helps you out.

---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

To Mr. Bigglesworth

So outside of sonnia what do you have that can actually do damage to stuff in that list?

To neb:

I wouldn't reccomend samuel with sonnia due to lack of obey unless you want to hire minion hamelin but he isn't cheap 10ss out of faction. When you are learning sonnia I would say not to go under 6-7 stones however once you are familiar with her I've found it's not hard to get by with 5 with her (however this is very matchup dependant). Against Dreamer/Kirai/Colette/Z with colludi I would not reccomend anything less than 7ss against them but probably 8.

The dogs/watcher's comes down to personal preferance they are really similar. Dogs are better at treasure hunt but watchers can drop terrifing off enemy models or harmless and have abilities to manipulate your library when they are not going after vp's.

With the exception of perdita I have found all my guild lists generally contain Santiago, watcher, and guardian if that helps you out.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

As you play her start high and work down. I have played plenty with 5ss and did fine. ss pool is to me player driven, I always start high and a few games then work down. If Lucius is in the crew max is recommended or 7 since Lucius will likely use a few.

Sam is too slow without Lucius to draw a bead on collette so I would be hard press to run without Lucius. Also, Collette will just laugh off Sam's attacks with her std heal option or poof where did i go? Ability.

Sam is also usable if student gives him fast and Lucius, but I don't think he is the master killer you tote. A skilled player can deal with him just fine. Collette it corphy can pop him without too much trouble.

@Odin, fair point, but witchlings do a fair amount and Lucius can place sonia with 4 casts to devestating a large portion of my opponents or drop a witchling with fast or desp merc even make good fast bombs with lucius. Though I take that list for blind games, otherwise I love dropping stalker and merc for either Santiago or judge. Judge is my pick, but if I'm feeling frisky I love taking Ryle.

@Hjel 2 dogs should be sufficient otherwise they are point sinks. Also if you take 3 opponents can take exterminate scheme for easy 2 points... This i can't stress enough. Height 1 walk 18" should mean even super fast crews will have hard time targeting them. Last point dogs are really for harrassment or late gane objective grabbers.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I see a lot of people hype up Lucius, but I just don't see why. I mean he's 10SS for not all that much in my eyes. Yeah he can pull of his Reinforcements spell as well as Issue Command, but is that really enough for 10SS? Because that's all I see him being good for.

[Dezzo]

my advice is to either pick up lady justice or perdita as a 2nd master. gives you more flexiblity when you flip your strategy.

double austringers has always been the 2 pillars of the guild crews that i play.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Reinforcements is an incredible spell that helps an already slow crew. Playing with him at 35ss and above well worth it. Otherwise below 35 he is not worth including.

Lucius is incredibly hard to kill, not impossible but just harder. A negative to hit plus slow to die means he can take a lot of hits. He can be just about as hard to kill as von. He is a utility peace not a killer and to me is worth 10ss.

[Brettqpublic]

I see a lot of people hype up Lucius, but I just don't see why. I mean he's 10SS for not all that much in my eyes. Yeah he can pull of his Reinforcements spell as well as Issue Command, but is that really enough for 10SS? Because that's all I see him being good for.

I've always found Lucius worth his points in 35SS games. Reinforcements lets you drop a fast, melee expert Lady J/Judge/Executioner pretty much where ever you want them. Plus, CA 9 Austringers are very nice as is sacking a Guard Dog that just brought Lucius treasure so he can reactive and walk away with it. Between - flips, S2D, and use SS he's a tough nut to crack.

All in all he doesn't provide that much punch but Malifaux isn't always about bringing the baddest combat crew.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

20SS just to put down 2 Austringers and Lucius just seems a little much to me. I mean yeah I've used Lucius to tie up Lady J. for about 3 full rounds, I couldn't kill her but I kept getting my trigger. I mean that's fun and all, but for the same amount of SS I could easily have gotten some really nice other models down. I guess I see his usefulness, but I'm not too sure if he'll be one of my go to guys.

But what do you all think about putting Nino in with Sonnia? He's only a good shooter, but he does put out a good amount of damage. Or should I instead get something more fast moving to grab objectives?

[Dezzo]

20SS just to put down 2 Austringers and Lucius just seems a little much to me. I mean yeah I've used Lucius to tie up Lady J. for about 3 full rounds, I couldn't kill her but I kept getting my trigger. I mean that's fun and all, but for the same amount of SS I could easily have gotten some really nice other models down. I guess I see his usefulness, but I'm not too sure if he'll be one of my go to guys.

But what do you all think about putting Nino in with Sonnia? He's only a good shooter, but he does put out a good amount of damage. Or should I instead get something more fast moving to grab objectives?

Objective grabber = Watcher. Especially if objectives are on the wide.

Personally, I don't bother with Ortegas unless I am running Perdita. But even when running her, I give all the Ortegas a miss. lol! I squeeze more out of the crew / ss without Ortegas because you pay a premium for the "Ortega" branding.

[Odin1981]

I find Nino lackluster due to all factions outside of guild having fast crews. If you ever run up against a fast crew you are essentially handicapping yourself 7ss by taking him. This is mainly in part to him getting curb stomped by a fast crew model that is more than capable of plowing threw him in one activation.

What I would suggest to using ortega's in non ortega lists is this. If you feel compelled to take 2 take santiago with francisco. It costs 12ss but it is a very nice combo of ortega's in that santiago is a damage machine from range and has some protection from targeting via hard to kill. Also when at half wounds he gets a free walk plus he hits the magical requirement of paired 7 peacemakers with a inhierant + damage flip. Between 3/4/6 damage flips (crit strike on non trigger happy triggers) and paired weapons with the trigger happy trigger he is much more of a house when it comes to chaining repeat trigger happies. Also at half health with the free walk he only has a 2" disadvantage of range compared to nino but has the (2) action spell that does a 4 or 5" pulse of 4 damage when he gets focused on in melee.

Francisco is normally not well liked on the boards but if you use him as a 2nd wave within 6" of santi for companion he is a great deterrant for people coming up to santi. he is a 5 point model but if he gets a obey from a outcast hired minion hamelin he will normally be able to flurry melee strike whatever does survive sant's ranged attacks and all but masters will normally go down to the flurries (he is melee cmbt 7 and ranged 6) so even if it is a master unless they are def 7 or 8 you are most likely making them waste 2-3 ss potentially to make sure francisco misses his attacks. The only thing with cisco is you cannot play him as a frontline model if you do he will normally get targeted and killed because he only has 5 def and if I remember correctly 5 or 6 wounds.