Request for an Errata to the Bury mechanic

[Calmdown]

Hi!

Pretty much everyone knows about this issue, so I won't go into detail about it.

I'd like to ask in this semi-official format that bury is reworked so as not to be as abusable as it is now.

I/We all know that you guys are horribly busy and have *lots* of rules that need your attention, but this mechanic in particular is being abused by a lot of different models (and causes a lot of rules queries and negative play experience) and is almost certainly not working as intended; it's probably the most clear cut problem rule out there right now, hence the request for a change to this specifically.

My apologies if this is a little too forthright but it seems like a whole pile of abusive game mechanics could be fixed in one fell swoop!

Yours hopefully

Friendly Neighbourhood Calmdown

[Kadeton]

I dont understand why this is getting so convoluted.

Effects on buried models should end at the same time as they end on not buried models.

You dont need to count the buried model as in play, you just need to alter the end closing phase end-effects statement so that it says "effects end on all models in play and all buried models".

Simples.

I think there needs to be a bit more than that... it wouldn't cover effects that resolve at the end of a model's activation, for example. However, I agree that there's not much more than that.

[CRC]

I dont understand why this is getting so convoluted.

Effects on buried models should end at the same time as they end on not buried models.

You dont need to count the buried model as in play, you just need to alter the end closing phase end-effects statement so that it says "effects end on all models in play and all buried models".

Simples.

What happens when they die in bury-space? What about their "I don't die" mechanics?

What happens to the stuff they're carrying?

The questions aren't that complicated, but they do need to be answered.

[96p]

The SS Miner would be crap without his melee master bury trick :/

Unburied Models should get slow just as summoned models (yes chompty too... especially chompty).

[Sarsnick]

The SS Miner would be crap without his melee master bury trick :/

Unburied Models should get slow just as summoned models (yes chompty too... especially chompty).

Have you tried playing Dreamer or just saying this from what you've witnessed?

[CannonFodder]

Have you tried playing Dreamer or just saying this from what you've witnessed?

I have, and if played without maximizing the bury mechanic or a terror drop or turn 1 in deployment zone yo-yo he is strong but not broken. The problem is that If played to the limit with any of these he is virtually unbeatable. some players in my LGS specifically go out of there not to maximize it because its that strong, and enjoy the look and concept behind it but want to have a game instead of a victory. Its the hyper competitive players that abuse it.

As for the SS miner, If they factored it in the with the bury mechanics when they designed it , why didn't they just print Melee master on the card.

[sharpobjects]

How about this one;

Effects placed on the model by the model itself or models from his crew, end when buried. That would eliminate buffing the model with its own spells/actions and the buffing from its other models in the crew prior to bury.

This would stop the dreamer player from unburrying and dropping buffed models on opponents crews. It would also still allow for the models to be buried with negative effects such as slow, paralyzed etc.

[Requirement]

some players in my LGS specifically go out of there not to maximize it because its that strong, and enjoy the look and concept behind it but want to have a game instead of a victory.

I know I'm off topic now but isn't it so refreshing to play with these types of people? Every once in a while my faith in humanity is slightly restored.

[Kadeton]

How about this one;

Effects placed on the model by the model itself or models from his crew, end when buried. That would eliminate buffing the model with its own spells/actions and the buffing from its other models in the crew prior to bury.

This would stop the dreamer player from unburrying and dropping buffed models on opponents crews. It would also still allow for the models to be buried with negative effects such as slow, paralyzed etc.

Slow and Paralyzed aren't a problem anyway, they don't drop off at the Resolve Effects Step, so wouldn't be affected by effects on buried models ending as normal.

I think I'd like to see a condition along the lines of "If a model would be killed or sacrificed while buried, it is not killed or sacrificed. When the model is returned to play, it is immediately killed or sacrificed as appropriate." That should cover most of the issues with what happens to the counters carried by the model, and lets models with Slow to Die, Does Not Die and similar benefit from those abilities, preserves the survivability of models like Bete Noire, and so on.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Kadeton

[Calmdown]

What happens when they die in bury-space? What about their "I don't die" mechanics?

They die. Or, they dont die, but theyre still buried, and then die at the end of the turn... you can unbury them before that. Being dead or alive doesnt changed when youre buried.

What happens to the stuff they're carrying?

Its lost. You shouldnt be able to bury models with important counters like Treasure anyway.

The questions aren't that complicated, but they do need to be answered.

Theyre all quite easy to account for, nothing that should make the rule convoluted.

[Dustcrusher]

Its lost. You shouldnt be able to bury models with important counters like Treasure anyway.

Just for clarity's sake, "lost" means "dropped in base contact before burying the model," correct? I don't want someone thinking "well then how do we finish the game if the Treasure counter is lost? Do we just go to schemes for our VPs?"

[Vmag]

Do we just go to schemes for our VPs?"

Yep. Seriously though, the Counters rules state that, unless given a special rule, they can only be dropped when a model is removed from the game. A Buried model is "removed from play", if that model is "removed from game" while "removed from play" then the Counters would be dropped outside of play. Perhaps another buried model could pick it up and bring it back I'm talking out my arse here of course since none of this discussion really matters because, as we've been told, the mechanic is being worked on already. Losing a treasure counter this way though would just be an extreme case similar to when I pick up your treasure counter and run away with it so you still can't get VP.

For what it's worth, before coming to the Forums I had always thought Bury worked the way CalmDown has suggested. That's how I had interpreted those sections on pg 13 anyway and that seemed just fine.

[CRC]

While "if a model dies in bury-space it's gone" approach is simplest from a rules point of view, I'm not sure it matches well with player expectation. My experience is that rules that do what random players expect are generally best.

By default, I would expect the answer to be "their dead body comes back". I know this raises a number of issues, but it seems strange to me that if I place Massive Dose on Ashes and Dust, that my opponent can remove him from the game just by burying him.

As for why I keep stirring this pot. Nerdelemental suggested we should switch to discussing how to change bury rather than whether it should be changed.

[Rathnard]

The SS Miner would be crap without his melee master bury trick :/

From experience, I've found that a model who can gain soulstones with a suit arcanists care little for, remain untouchable until he appears anywhere on the board, potentially disappear again after making his attack/s and is tough enough for a mid-range model to have trouble killing in an activation is well worth the 6SS and special forces slot you pay. The business with abusing bury for non-stop defensive stance, overdrive and blessings of desolation isn't needed. This is a great model regardless.

I must admit, I didn't even know that a buried model would not drop a treasure counter. If that's how it works then irrespective of any bury errata, I suspect that should change.

[Fetid Strumpet]

What? Wow I totally misinterpreted that in a recent game. That has got to be totally unintentional.

[13th Warrior]

Surely the Treasure Counter at least is covered by the description of Treasure Hunt on page 94:

A model changing position on the table by an effect other than the Walk action or leaving play drops the Treasure Counter in base contact with itself.

A buried model leaves play, so it drops the Treasure Counter in base contact then gets buried. That's the only way I've ever known it being played anyway.

Even if the wording isn't 100% clear (I think it is, but other people may interpret it differently), surely the intent in this case is - if you do anything other than Walk with the Treasure, you'll drop it.

[Vmag]

Ah, nice catch on the Treasure Counter.

So that is another possible problem with the 'effects end' change to Bury that is solved. Any other potential issues?

[Keltheos]

Oh look, what's this?

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?30054-BURY-ERRATA-Yes-BURY-Errata