Malifaux Masters: A Tier List

[Lucidicide]

Finally, since this place for some reason thinks it good form to post something utterly random: aboogawooga-ooga-booga. Pies and canary birds and puppies! Yay! Flowers and beer and tiny tiny kittens.

It was not utterly random. It was mostly random. Just like the order of Calmdown's tiers. Oh man, I'm on fire today!

Besides, there was only one bit of random and that was after we were asked to calm down. It was my version of saying "This is awkward" in an awkward moment. I think it was for the best.

Also, Nilus is correct. Tiny tiny kittens are way OP. It won't be long before they overtake porn as the most OP thing on the net.

[Mergoth]

Also, Nilus is correct. Tiny tiny kittens are way OP. It won't be long before they overtake porn as the most OP thing on the net.

LOLcatz anyone?

And 2 b l33t one has to call in "pron".

Edited March 2, 2012 by Mergoth
had to add in bit about pron

[Lucidicide]

And to l33t one has to call in "pron".

I think I saw that movie as a kid. It involved someone being sucked into a computer, right?

Anyway, for my first serious post on here in a long time -- this game is not perfectly balanced. I think that it is very well balanced overall. I think the larger problem isn't balance, but rather that some crews have access to things that look and play very cool. Other crews are less exciting to many players. I think that's why you see fewer Guild players in tournaments, etc.

The things that have been a problem in the past (Pandora Inciting/Pacifying her own crew, Alps, etc) have been addressed. Has every problem been fixed? No. Will it ever be? No. Is there value in this sort of discussion? Yes... when it's an actual discussion.

[Q'iq'el]

Wow is the game really this imbalanced? I'm just starting up again after my group abandoned Malifaux for the seemingly more balanced Warmachine. =/

What you have to realize is Tier 5 is much closer to Tier 1 than in many other games (as long as you accept Calmdown's grouping that is - personally I think there are only two tiers: 1. Needs some more work; 2. Mostly Fine). Among average players there is practically no difference - you can expect to beat the top tier masters with the low tier masters every time, as long as you do your homework.

Whether there is a big difference in the power level when played by top-level players is hotly debated in this very thread.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[dgraz]

Is there value in this sort of discussion? Yes... when it's an actual discussion.

Well spoken.

[Vondur]

What you have to realize is Tier 5 is much closer to Tier 1 than in many other games (as long as you accept Calmdown's grouping that is - personally I think there are only two tiers: 1. Needs some more work; 2. Mostly Fine). Among average players there is practically no difference - you can expect to beat the top tier masters with the low tier masters every time, as long as you do your homework.

Whether there is a big difference in the power level when played by top-level players is hotly debated in this very thread.

Ok, well assuming that this is true this makes the game sound better. All the guys at my local shop went over to Warmachine. A lot of Warmachine fans have told me that one of the main appeals to it is that there is no "bad list". Any list has a fair chance of beating any other list of the same point value. Don't know if this is true, it's just what I've been told. It would be nice if Malifaux is the same way.

[Q'iq'el]

Ok, well assuming that this is true this makes the game sound better. All the guys at my local shop went over to Warmachine. A lot of Warmachine fans have told me that one of the main appeals to it is that there is no "bad list". Any list has a fair chance of beating any other list of the same point value. Don't know if this is true, it's just what I've been told. It would be nice if Malifaux is the same way.

First of all, I don't believe in "no bad lists" in Warmachine. Bear in mind I do not play the game, but I've heard a lot of complaints about auto-win lists and lists that can't compete. Now I realize this is what one can hear about every game out there and 99% of it is simply whining, but at the same time I don't think a badly designed list can perform in any of the miniature games.

Now Malifaux is a special case in that it requires you to hire the crew for the mission, rather than come up with a list.

Malifaux is not a game where you build a list, but rather you collect the faction of your choice. The more models of your favorite faction you have, the more flexible you are. Before every game you hire the models and that process determines your chances. So rather than there being "no bad lists", there are "no lists to speak of". On the other hand there is such a thing as "very bad minions for the strategy" - if your choice of minions is limited or if you are inexperienced and hire wrong models, you are going to do poorly (So it makes a lot of sense to begin with really small games - 15~20SS, to level up the playing field).

Some factions and masters require very little investment to get the right pool of models to perform (Book 2 masters in general, Outcast sub-factions to a degree, Neverborn and Guild mostly), some are incredibly model-intensive (Resurrectionists chiefly, with Nicodem topping the scoreboard - for that one master you can buy almost the entire faction of minions and some mercenaries on the top of that).

To sum up: Yes there are bad lists, if you hire badly. This is by design. This is also why internet lists are not as prevalent in Malifaux as in other games (with the exception of Book 2 masters perhaps). Masters are mostly balanced if you fulfill the conditions the game design sets for the players - understanding the hiring process and having well-thought out selection of masters and minions to choose from.

[Mergoth]

A lot of Warmachine fans have told me that one of the main appeals to it is that there is no "bad list". Any list has a fair chance of beating any other list of the same point value.

Ask them to tell say that again after their shooty list went up against a full stealthed army... It's not fun for anyone.

[Guy in Suit]

. A lot of Warmachine fans have told me that one of the main appeals to it is that there is no "bad list". Any list has a fair chance of beating any other list of the same point value. Don't know if this is true, it's just what I've been told. It would be nice if Malifaux is the same way.

I play warmachine, not as often as Malifaux mind, but with a pretty big group of guys - 20 or so - and not a single one would EVER say that.

Maybe you should be glad your corner of the world hasn't cracked warmachine yet? But yeah, out of the myriad possible warmachine lists, I think there are maybe 2-3 for each faction considered tourney worthy? Out of hundreds?

[Omenbringer]

Secondly, the Beta Testers for Twisty Fates aren't that hard to identify - they're listed in the book.

Not all of them are listed (you had to opt in by a certain time). There were a lot more than what you see in the book.

I never looked at Bette until recently but "broke" her almost straight away (and started the current whole let's bury and abuse Bette idea). I'm not bothered I'm not involved form an ego point of view (genuinely), but I really think players with a knack for breaking stuff should be involved in play testing to catch things like this.

Fore the record Bury abuse with Bete Noir (and Lady Justice for that matter) have been around for a lot longer than the recent posts. Lady Justice and the Death Marshal tricks were the talk of the forums more than a year ago. These things have been seen and lamented about before, the problem is that they weren't really prevailent since whole crews couldn't abuse these loopholes in the mechanics. Now with entire crews that can bury or have spirit or can respawn over and over they are a lot more prevailent.

I certainly don't want to downplay beta testers (some of them are friends), but you can't let some of the stuff through that's there and not expect players to criticise you. Alp bombs? Hamelin's whole mechanic? Dreamer sniping? Bury abuse? They aren't complex or difficult to see, they're glaring mistakes on the part of the beta testers and Wyrd.

As Lalo says, you have no idea what was brought up and shot down. It was a massive (and taxing effort).

Just to add (again for the record), the Rising Powers Playtests occured before the V2 revisions and the Rules Manual were available or even mentioned.

I am not trying to downplay our involvment with letting things thru just trying to clarify. (additionally if you search around you will find playtesters that have actively worked to correct things that did slip thru. I myself have been very vocal about several of them much to you and SAnwich's chigrin).

[ukrocky]

Ask them to tell say that again after their shooty list went up against a full stealthed army... It's not fun for anyone.

Ahhh Cygnar vs Cryx <3

[Spiku]

testers were even multinational =3

[Mergoth]

Ahhh Cygnar vs Cryx <3

Nope. Karchev vs Deneghra. MY Karchev towing a load of Destroyers... The game actually took longer to set up than to play. Very boring.

[Dustcrusher]

What about incompetence?

Oh, good one! Left just enough room to where you could argue that this wasn't a personal attack. I don't recall being part of the American/British trash talk fest (which was all fine and good considering you are all ready, willing, and able to play competitively), so I'm not sure what brought this on.

In any event, a fine effort sir, but I must decline to escalate. For your trouble, have a slice of rhubarb pie.

I'll explain why I was so flippant:

Long story short our Hamelin player had the advantage on me in every way except two: I had more games against Book 1 masters/a player who started with Colette, and Nicodem of course has Rigor Mortis.

He had a better strat, better master, more experience in other tabletop games, etc. He chose Hamelin in part because he was sick of playing underdogs in other games (read: Tyranids in 40k). Note also that we forgot about discarding down to 6 cards during the Discard/Draw phase, so in my incompetence I had given myself an additional handicap.

So yeah, with all that in place, I think it's hilarious that he complained about Rigor Mortis paralyzing his Ratcatchers two turns in a row. I couldn't capitalize and would've lost regardless- it was just a matter of degree. One advantage versus a multitude, and he had the win pretty much in the bag, yet somehow Rigor Mortis borders on being broken.

I dunno, maybe you had to be there.

[Justin]

I never looked at Bette until recently but "broke" her almost straight away (and started the current whole let's bury and abuse Bette idea). I'm not bothered I'm not involved form an ego point of view...

2009

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?9911-Nurse-Questions&p=109297&viewfull=1#post109297

Not that I have ego involved in calling "first" on bete, either. But I am very capable of breaking things, and I was there, as were others. Also, this sort of goes to my point about how perception often depends on how vocal the people who know the combos are. It's been played for years, it just didn't become flavor of the month on the forums until now.

And, again, you have no idea the broken things which AREN'T there anymore. Nor how much time it took to test those things, and convince everyone they were broken and should be removed.

[nilus]

Secondly, the Beta Testers for Twisty Fates aren't that hard to identify - they're listed in the book.

They have been listed in every book. I just hope no one ever figured out my ingenious hidden code in my handle or they may figure out who I am and lynch me for all the playtester mistakes in book 1,2 and 3(but not the Rules Manual, ain't got my name in that one )

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

Not that I have ego involved in calling "first" on bete, either. But I am very capable of breaking things, and I was there, as were others.

You can have a bit of an ego Lalo. sKeTcH once told me he wanted to put your brain in a jar and run playtest data through it all day. You are like the old man game break telling the rookies about the good old days

[Lucidicide]

You can have a bit of an ego Lalo. sKeTcH once told me he wanted to put your brain in a jar and run playtest data through it all day. You are like the old man game break telling the rookies about the good old days

True story. Lalo was my favorite of all testers.

[Adanedhel]

I just thought it'd be interesting to write out what I currently consider to be the Malifaux Master tier list and see what people think themselves too.

I love how so many people chose to ignore Calmdowns disclaimer

My assesment, though granted, from within the rather limited pool that is Belgium and some internetskillz, and theoryfaux (I'm actually a huge theoryfaux fan, ranking top 5 in my country chiefly through theoryfaux, and playing the 'immensly broken' Pandora and Leveticus as tournament masters(though when playing Levi I tend to take Hamelin with me for Dreamerplayers (which as of yet I have not needed to take))

Now Calmdown, within my limited knowledge there are a couple of changes I would like to propose

First wouldbe a reducing of the number of tiers, cause 6 Tiers makes Malifaux seem a whole lot more unbalanced then it is.

Are there unbalances? Of course there are, otherwise the very idea of a Tierlist would be ridiculous.

Are they so bad as to warrant a scale of 6 tiers? I mean, unless the tiers are really really fine I don't believe so.

4-5 tiers should suffice to differentiate between wholly equal and 9/10, with good players.

Malifaux as a game is actually very playable, and the VPsystem with schemes gives a lot of leeway to play with socalled lowertier masters. There are very few matchups which are so egregious that there is no longer a point in playing, and I do believe 6 tiers as such give too strong a division, if you really wanted to granular, you could still make subdivisions, but within those subdivisions a bit of luck, just one flip or the least factor of skill might make a wholly different game. In such cases I do not think a further tier is neccesary, because differences are as close as negligible.

So without further ado, my tierlist

Tier 1

Hamelin

The Dreamer

Kirai

Tier 2

Pandora, Lilith, Somer, Collette, Sonnia

Tier 3

Zoraida, Viktorias, Lady Justice, Hoffman, McMourning, Marcus, Perdita

Tier 4

Rasputina, Ramos, Seamus, Nicodem

I've also excluded henchman, because I don't like to rate them unto themselves, a Lady J. crew which consists of Lucius, Guardsmen Elite Division and a few other pieces maybe is still meant to be a Lucius crew. Similar for Kaeris, Fire Gamins, Student, with Colette/Cassie or Ramos as support for Kaeris.

Further I excluded Leveticus, due to a couple of factors

1 Emotional attachments: he's my favourite master by a great deal, and I'm not sure wether my assesment is correct

2 Slaughter/ Slaughtered: Levi tends to either wreck the whole opposing crew without needing any support bar claiming vp from his crew (though the occasional Imbue Vigor makes others cry), or have a matchup so horribly bad he's going down hard, those bad matchups being: Dreamer, Kirai, Colette and Sonnia, which makes him a risk in Closed faction play, cause they are quite evenly spread amongst factions, at the other hand Hamelin, Pandora and every master in or below tier3 is quite easily wreckable

(Honestly, Pandora's Emotional Trauma tends to help Levi by still losing Wds regardless wether or not Expose Fears stops him (which most regulary it won't))

3 I'm the only one playing him in Belgium (though Headcase used to I haven't seem him playing levi once) an dpeople are constantly complaining about how broken he is (though getting Von Shill turned into a second ressurection beacon on turn 1 probably was quite a bitter blow so yeah, if you're not prepared you're in for a nasty surprise)

4 For one reason or another people here tend to be of the opinion that Levi isn't worth going into trouble of neutralising, so just go for Vp and minions and just suck up the pain Levi causes, this is what I would percieve as a big mistake in our meta, which I am regardlessy quite happy with

[Spiku]

I find the multiple tiers = huge imbalances a rather curious.

Just because there are divisions between each, and each can be placed separately, does not make bottom tier (not including Molly) completely useless.

[Serigala]

Oh, good one! Left just enough room to where you could argue that this wasn't a personal attack. I don't recall being part of the American/British trash talk fest (which was all fine and good considering you are all ready, willing, and able to play competitively), so I'm not sure what brought this on.

In any event, a fine effort sir, but I must decline to escalate. For your trouble, have a slice of rhubarb pie.

Thanks for the pie, but I feel it is undeserved.

My point, as an Outcast player myself who is still struggling to find the sweet spot of brokenness with Hamelin, is that I am more likely to complain about my incompetence than my bad luck.

I am surprised that you should have taken a response to a comment you wrote in the third person, as being personally directed. Sorry for any offense.

See signature...

[Adanedhel]

I find the multiple tiers = huge imbalances a rather curious.

Just because there are divisions between each, and each can be placed separately, does not make bottom tier (not including Molly) completely useless.

Well: there has to be a signifacnt difference because otherwise there wouldn't be need of tiers.

So in order for a tier to exist there should be a clear difference between both the predecedor, and the follower.

If the difference between tiers is visible (otherwise there wouldn't be tiers) there should be a win/loss disparity which is large enough to be visible, for example 66-33 (because if the balance would be (55-45 these may be statistical noise I guess, because of the ass of now relativel small sample).

So if Tier 1 vs Tier 2 gives 66/33 and tier 2 vs Tier 3 gives 66/33

that would give Tier 3 vs Tier 1 a 1/3*1/3=1/9 (on the assumption that the odds of a tier are directly related to eachother), and the chance on Tier 1+ vs Tier 5 would be 1/201.

This is a very very simplified model, which doesn't even closely represent the real probabilities (if such can reasonably be made) but only serves to illustrate my thoughtprocess at the time rather then an accurate state of how tiers are build, and flat out ignores the differences in matchup difficulties (Levi who's Tier2 at best, will make a mockery of a Hamelin crew, while suffering heavily when against Dreamer)

[Mergoth]

I just thought it'd be interesting to write out what I currently consider to be the Malifaux Master tier list and see what people think themselves too.

I love how so many people chose to ignore Calmdowns disclaimer

His "disclaimer" is clearly written in jest. Ironic jest at that, since it's quite clear he has zero interest in "what people think themselves too". Unless of course it's to agree with his view point.

Well: there has to be a signifacnt difference because otherwise there wouldn't be need of tiers.

Many of us believe that there is no significant difference, and that there is no need for tiers.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mergoth

[Adanedhel]

Mergoth, I by no taken claim to be a strong player, but rank pretty high in our countries rank list anyways, thanks to Pandora and Leveticus, 2 masters whom bar specific matchups make a mockery out of the effects of opposing masters, whereas when playing Marcus (admittedly only 2 games as of yet) I've never felt Marcus significantly contributing, while after my first game with Dora (which ended in a draw, due to Dora herself going loose with no more minions to care for) I've had 3 games on row which I won easily vs experienced players playing Zoraida en Viks, in my first 4 games I didn't lose a single time, and I am pretty sure that the fact I chose pandora to begin with turned out to be a major contributor to that fact. If this is possible, there are most certainly significant differences in power between masters.

(And screw people who say Pandora isn't easy to learn, I needed one game to get a pretty good grip on how she herself functioned, and the one time I gave a demo with Pandora (myself playing Lady J) I was suffering while playing to most of my skill then (though for the sake of the demo I temporarily forgot that Lady Justice had this Blind Justice spell which is pretty fun in the matchup))

[magicpockets]

2009

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?9911-Nurse-Questions&p=109297&viewfull=1#post109297

Not that I have ego involved in calling "first" on bete, either. But I am very capable of breaking things, and I was there, as were others. Also, this sort of goes to my point about how perception often depends on how vocal the people who know the combos are. It's been played for years, it just didn't become flavor of the month on the forums until now.

And you know I searched to try and find if it had been discussed before But like you say, my point wasn't how super awesome I was to be the first, just that it wasn't hard to "break" and now people are crying cuddle on her.

And, again, you have no idea the broken things which AREN'T there anymore. Nor how much time it took to test those things, and convince everyone they were broken and should be removed.

Don't forget there's a difference between not being a play-tester and not seeing the play-testing rules - I've got a *cough* idea of how the rules shaped up. And anyway, saying "we did 80% of the job" isn't justification for not doing the remaining 20% properly (that's not aimed at you personally, more about the general state of the rules etc)

[Calmdown]

His "disclaimer" is clearly written in jest. Ironic jest at that, since it's quite clear he has zero interest in "what people think themselves too". Unless of course it's to agree with his view point.

Actually I have every interest in peoples' opinions. There are lots of good posts in this thread on the granularity of the tiers, or the place of specific masters.

However, your particular contributions have unfortunately been flat wrong. Don't take offense at that, I think you (like many people) probably just don't play in an environment competitive enough to see why the tiers are the way they are.