Which master to use?

[graeme27uk]

So I leap into Malifaux with two joyous feet and find myself drawn to the lovely mass of undead hordes that I so love.

I have ordered Nicodem to start me off, though the other Ressie masters also look good.

I've looked at "pullmyfinger" and read up on them, but how do they play in real experience terms. Reading theory-fluff is all good but also useful to hear from people who use them.

McMourning seems pretty good in that he can summon fleshy-deadness and is more combat orientated.

Nicodem seems very much one who sits back and hides. Love his avatar, well the model at least, still reading up on the rules.

Mad-Hatter seems similar to McMourning in that he likes getting into combat. His avatar looks great!

Not sure about the japanese lady spirit person. I like the concept, though it seems completely different from any other ressie master.

So, how much overlap is there between the masters?

How much synergy?

What are people's experiences of each master?

How would you rank the masters in terms of:

1. melee ability
   
2. survivability
   
3. ranged ability
   
4. spell-castiness (offensive)
   
5. summoning
   
6. utility/buff
   

[SoulG]

There is a lot of overlap between the Book 1 masters. You can be in a good place for Nicodem, McMourning, and Seamus with only a few non-overlapped models at $200. Nico Box + Seamus Box + Grave Spirit + McMourning Model + Zombie Chihuahua + Von Schill + Dead Rider + Canine Remains + Flesh Construct x2 + Rogue Necromancy, bought in that order will take you a long way.

I'm not sure what you mean by synergy. You mean in Brawls? In a rush, so I can't really give a rundown of each master right now, sorry.

[Calmdown]

using this scale:

poor

mediocre

average

good

exceptional

Kirai: poor in combat, exceptional survivability, poor ss cache, exceptional movement-based utility, exceptional crew support, exceptional summoning ability

Seamus: mediocre in combat, poor survivability, poor ss cache, average utility (good utility against living models only), average summoning ability

Nicodem: mediocre in combat, poor survivability, poor ss cache, very poor objective completion ability, average undead support utility, average summoning ability

McMourning: good in combat, average survivability, exceptional ss cache, good objective completing ability due to speed, poor utility, good summoning ability

And the harsh reality in power level of each master:

Kirai: Excellent

Seamus: Terrible

Nicodem: Terrible

McMourning: Average-Good

Forget master synergy. It's unexplored territory for the most part, because brawls are horribly unbalanced and boring and no-one plays them seriously.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Calmdown

[rancor709]

Disagree wholeheartedly nicodem being terrible overall. His summoning ability is also a card draw, decay is high utility spell that heals friendly undead and wounds nonfriendly with blast damage potential. Strong pool of summonable minions. 10" para spell that only requires 10+ any suit and can be atoned targeting wp with a ca of 7. The ability to make increase the lack luster cb and df of friendly undead within 10" passively, six ht 5 obsurcing effect on 3+:masks.

Points I will seed very low mobility can be taxied around be dead rider to mitigate, low soulstone cash he needs 6-8 stones to really conistantly work. Corpse counter generation either through dogs, mortimer who can also speed up the whole crew but loses utiliy as the game progresses. Nicodem is far from terrible and to have him summoning on par with seamus is simply incorrect, seamus is a zero action he can summon belles or a dead doxy and that's it. Nicodem can summon belles, dead doxies, canine remains, necropunks, punk zombies, crooked men, flesh constructs, rogue necromancy and draw cards for every counter he eliminates. So summoning should be at least better than seamus. also your point on survivaability could be made on any model in malifaux concentrated attacks on anything in malifaux will die fairly easily. The situational ability of zombie fodder is nice but not something to rely on. However nicodem being df 3 with h2w1 still means he will be hit by most things in the game, but postionally he should be protected as much as possible. Including using fog as necessary and paralyzing threats as they come in to range.

Based on the whole package the blunt truth on nicodem is average not terrible

[Calmdown]

Disagree wholeheartedly nicodem being terrible overall. His summoning ability is also a card draw, decay is high utility spell that heals friendly undead and wounds nonfriendly with blast damage potential. Strong pool of summonable minions. 10" para spell that only requires 10+ any suit and can be atoned targeting wp with a ca of 7. The ability to make increase the lack luster cb and df of friendly undead within 10" passively, six ht 5 obsurcing effect on 3+:masks.

Points I will seed very low mobility can be taxied around be dead rider to mitigate, low soulstone cash he needs 6-8 stones to really conistantly work. Corpse counter generation either through dogs, mortimer who can also speed up the whole crew but loses utiliy as the game progresses. Nicodem is far from terrible and to have him summoning on par with seamus is simply incorrect, seamus is a zero action he can summon belles or a dead doxy and that's it. Nicodem can summon belles, dead doxies, canine remains, necropunks, punk zombies, crooked men, flesh constructs, rogue necromancy and draw cards for every counter he eliminates. So summoning should be at least better than seamus. also your point on survivaability could be made on any model in malifaux concentrated attacks on anything in malifaux will die fairly easily. The situational ability of zombie fodder is nice but not something to rely on. However nicodem being df 3 with h2w1 still means he will be hit by most things in the game, but postionally he should be protected as much as possible. Including using fog as necessary and paralyzing threats as they come in to range.

Based on the whole package the blunt truth on nicodem is average not terrible

All well and good in a happy theoretical world where your opponent is clueless and all we do is compare numbers, however in realityevery time you lose initiative and don't get to Fog or Paralyze before the enemy, Nicodem will either take significant damage or be killed outright since Df 3 basically means you get automatically hit. Also, I absolutely adore every time I read about people taxiing Nicodem around with a Dead Rider. Spending 10 points to move your master around the board is absolute hilarity.

And his summoning ability is merely average because its difficult to fuel it due to his low speed and the general lack of corpse counters in Malifaux. In terms of general usage, Seamus' summoning is also average. McMourning is better because it is a lot easier for him to get bodyparts to summon what he likes, and Kirai, well, that's obvious.

Theory doesn't always translate to reality.

[TimeLapse]

hehe lol... nicadem bad... so not true, nicademis a fantastic master. If you think he is bad you are playing him soo wrong. First off grab a grave spirit and attach it to nicodem, now he has armor +2 and has hard to wound one with df 3, eat that ramos.

Now with this simple protection i have rarely needed mindless zombies. Next it is all about summoning and placement. Now you will never guaranteed the cards you need to summon from turn to turn so i suggest discarding every card in your hand that is not a crow. Yes i have discarded thirteen’s to get crows, it seems wrong but with hard to wound on almost all your models you end up cycling those cards back in asap.

Now for not having corpse counters in your opponents list don’t worry, you bring your own in the form of Mortimer and at lest 4 undead dogs. Undead daogs are fantastic when bolstered and have an good damage spread added to the fact that they may make a model -2 WP for the rest of the game. Use my discarding everything that is not a crow to help Mortimer get a corpse counter, don’t be afraid to use your last crow in your hand to get it.

The dream team as I call them is when you activate Mortimer, then zombie companion nicodem and then get the totem as well if needed. This allows you to get a summon in if possible right away in a turn and then bolster undead.

If you don’t have high crow cards SS a low one into the card you need, paying one ss for a punk zombie is still a good deal.

Nicodem does not kill things really on his own, what he does is paralize things and lets his lackys do the killing for him so don't get too close to the combat and leave a nice defence line of zombies to block an enmay from charging right for you.

As for the cetch all Nicodem list that works really well for me, it is

Nicodem

Grave spirit

Mortimer 7ss

4 canine remains 8ss

Cooked man 4ss

And one big heavy hitting monster that will give your opponent a worry, I use ashes and dust or the dead rider.

Never pay full price for a punk zombie not when you can pay 2ss for a dog .

The best way to move Nicodem is just to move him with bells, you lure him up and you get there. But never fully move him into the battle always keep him at the edge of combat and use the full 10 inch range of booster undead.

There is more too him then most players give him credit for, his flexibility alone make him worth it and as the game gets more models he is only going to get better with more undead models to summon and hire.

For me it goes

Best undead master, kari

2nd best tied between nicodem and mcmorring (Mcmorring would beat out nicodem if it was not for his low WP, keeping him paralyzed with nicadem becomes easy and there for highly beatable.

3rd Semus

4th molly

BTW these are tatics I use in game and are not just ideas or theroy. Ask anyone who I play against and they will tell you that my nicodem list is vary effective and that no one plays him quite like me. =P You will find that he is not only good but one of the best masters around and no one ever puts him down... when he is played right.

Edited February 28, 2012 by TimeLapse

[Spiku]

mortimer is 7ss to have a 1 in 3.9 chance to gain corpse counters on activation; or cheating in crows that you could be using elsewhere. Why is he better than just taking 3-4 more dogs?

If belles are pulling nico, then they are not doing anything to opponents; you are spending 4ss or using a summon them to gain 3" movement or 6" after they have had a second turn after they move with slow from summoned within 6"?

I'm struggling to see how it is economic, can you explain how you play that makes this work?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Calmdown's point about initiative has proven true in the games my regular opponent has used Nicodem. The instant you lose initiative with Nicodem and the enemy can target something at him he gets targeted and often suffers for it. As much as I don't rate Molly for competitive play I have a very difficult time not bringing her along in games as I love her so much and Nicodem is one of her favorite targets for Terrible Secret. It doesn't stop his summoning, but it does put a crimp in his Rigor Mortis and makes him usually drop in a turn once a hitter gets to him.

I'm not always the best at crew construction, but if you plan on running Nicodem I feel you need to look at his defenses as a less efficient style of Kirai. If Nicodem wants to survive he needs Mindless Zombies near him to toss dangerous successful attacks off on to. Plan on bringing some models along who are going to get killed and raised as zombies on the first turn, and hopefully you won't need to us arise again during the game and can focus on Bolstering. It's sort of like Kirai needing to bring Seishin, although Kirai doesn't have to burn actions to refresh her Seishin.

[Ozz]

Just my opinions, here but ill post them anyway as it may be useful. I probably do agree that Nicodem is the third best master out of the 4 Ressurectionists, haven't played at all or seen much of Mcm or Kiari but what ive read seems to make it clear that Kiari is first, and McM with his speed makes me think he may be better than Nico, but i would definitely not say he is terrible, just slow, hence the dead rider "taxi" thing that Calmdown mentioned. Yes he is easy to hit, but if you have a crooked man or an enemy model or just some non h2w model near you, you can cast decay at them and heal yourself and anything else near enough by witch is always useful, he can do some damage and board control through his spells, but as always, lots of attacks will kill him, and he is not very good in combat or to close range with other models. So basically you can not leave him all on his own like some masters.

As for the Dead rider 10 stone Taxi. First off, its 11 stones as you really want the GS to do it, and for me at least, its a turn 1 move that makes me lose 2" of movement, to get my master 10" up the board (and 1 WD less thanks to GS) then i have a big beat stick that can drag my opponents models closer to my freshly summoned monsters that could not get far enough to attack without moving lots first. And, being able to move your opponents models upto 15" can be useful to you (10" Cg, 3" mele and 2" base) useful to you sometimes.

Anyway just my thoughts on Nico

[rancor709]

Wow went with magical theoryland blast. Its not theory it would be game play experience and dang straight a good player will come right at nicodem. And if there coming right at me I don't really need to walk now do I. And I'd take dead rider for about 12 other things and he can still caddy nico around. Is he is a must take no, is he garabage no. Does he help in movement based schemes yes.

Summoning so where did I state in my post any where that nicodem was better summoner than mcdougie fresh. The boidy part mechanic is superior to corspe because everything save a construct should drop a corpse counter, well maybe not spirits but I degress. Seamus summoning by far weaketst summoning and far from average. 10+:crows for a belle + a corpse counter costs a zero action. Or a 9+:crows for plus a corpse counter for a punk zombie and a card draw.

Ian I'm having issues with calling nicodem terrible on overall power level with the tools he has access to. If you play nicodem the mindset is much more warmachine and caster protection is key. Point I'm making is outside hamlin or dreamer most masters and models in malifaux tend to go down.

Raw rankings we have no disagreement kirai awesome

Mcdougie fresh-neat

Nicodem-less neat

Seamus-even less neat

Mollyigreat looking model

But I do enjoy a good debate but let's through the theortical stuff out the window. If you take any master outside of neverborne you are hand dependant as such sue is a strong in clusion to card fish.

I thinks its more a nicodem may not fit your playstyle. If you like chompy and are using mcdougie fresh nico pLays really different and poor postioning poorly flip iniative can be bad. But its that way for most masters. But if your in the delussions that nicodem is terrible that's fine, I'll live in theoryland cause I live on the table and magically I win games with a terrible master. So yes everyone I've ever beaten is obviously crap at this game, because how could nicodem ever when a game outside of theory land.

[Calmdown]

BTW these are tatics I use in game and are not just ideas or theroy. Ask anyone who I play against and they will tell you that my nicodem list is vary effective and that no one plays him quite like me. =P You will find that he is not only good but one of the best masters around and no one ever puts him down... when he is played right.

Forgive me, but your post is pure theory as all of your tactics assume your opponent does not counter your very counterable tactics.

I play Nicodem and I'm well aware that he can win games, like any master in Malifaux can. However, thats no reaaon to overstate his abilities; he is not a strong master.

[Dustcrusher]

For the most part Nicodem should be considered a support caster instead of a summoner. Summon only when the opportunity is too good to pass up (near end of turn, 9:crows in hand, 2 counters in range, no more targets for Rigor Mortis for example- why not summon a Flesh Construct then?).

The two main challenges to playing Nicodem are staying close enough to the action to use his spells but not so close he's in danger. He's not tournament gold like Hamelin or the Dreamer are, but he can be a lot of fun. People learn to fear Rigor Mortis, especially when you can potentially paralyze 3 models in one activation- I often get 2 out of 3, which will throw a wrench into plans.

I take at least 6 stones minimum if not 8, and usually burn at least two on critical Rigor Mortis casts. Start with at least one Punk Zombie, and one Belle is often worth it, too. Beyond that it depends on what you're trying to do in that particular encounter.

[SoulG]

@graeme27uk: I hope your question is more/less answered at this point. The issue with ranking Masters, as seen here, is that people can't really agree. To a large extent--especially early on--passion for the Master and a keen tactical mind will pull you farther than getting a solid ranking. You should consider this a good thing! If the stats are close enough to be fought over then that means you can probably have fun no matter what you pick.

That said, remember. You play a Faction not a Master. That's one of the big hurdles to overcome if you are more familiar with other wargames. Certain Masters are better for certain strategies against certain people in certain situations. All "rankings" are far more context-based than what is implied, and I promise you that you will feel -awesome- when you take a "low-rank" Master and find out where they excel.

Also remember, on these forums getting into an argument with Calmdown is a rite of passage, and there's actually much less bitterness than may be implied.

Let us know if you'd like anymore information, and good gaming!

[Calmdown]

Also remember, on these forums getting into an argument with Calmdown is a rite of passage, and there's actually much less bitterness than may be implied.

Hey, there was nod arguing with Graeme. The arguing was with older, experienced players who should know better than to give out such disinformation as "Nicodem is great". I play him and love him as much as the next guy, but be realistic when giving new players advice, please.

[Patchwork]

Hey, there was nod arguing with Graeme. The arguing was with older, experienced players who should know better than to give out such disinformation as "Nicodem is great". I play him and love him as much as the next guy, but be realistic when giving new players advice, please.

One man's realism is another man's dogma.

[Cornelious1424]

If you're going to play Nico, ditch Mortimer, he is totally useless. 7ss of a fun model, who's utility is minimal at best.

I feel like Nico NEEDs the corpse counters to stay effective, as he cannot win a game on his own like most of the more competitive masters. In my experience if he cant replenish his lines, he starts to become a lonely model. Rigor Mortis is awesome, but like other posts have mentioned, you almost need initiative to make it effective. I'm not saying that the summon factory of old is the play style, but I think he needs to make use of corpse counters.

Seamus is a fun master to play, but he is useless in most match ups. He isn't the best in combat and his only damaging spell is so short range that you often put yourself in a bad situation to cast it. Don't get me wrong, he is my favorite Resser master to play, but his tricks really only work on certain crews.

I don't own Dmac, so I really can't say.

Kirai is so very different from the rest. She is awesome, but I think she lacks a damage spell IMHO. I find HER to be boring in regards to what she does, but the rest of her crew are just so freakin' cool it's so hard not to play her.

[Dezzo]

My choice is McMourning and 2 Rotten Belles as base. Not sure what to include in his crew as it differs strategy to strategy.

As a disclaimer, i don't own Mcmourning (or any Resser crew) but I had a taste of him whilst playing against the local Resser guys and he rates one of the best in the Resser faction.

Haven't faced Kirai yet... well... probably I don't want to! *grin*

[SoulG]

@Calmdown: I didn't mean to imply that you were arguing with the OP or even being wrong in any fashion. It was more an assurance of the good-nature of the discussion taking place around the OP. I apologize if it came across as something other than that.

[letsallchant]

no mention of rafkin? sounds like in that other thread he brings nico up a few notches?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Only against crews that can't snipe him before the activations necessary to fulfill his purpose.

[Toonook]

I don't see how the dead rider taxi for Nico turn 1 is hilarity, the DR is advancing anyway why not take nico for a joyride while he's doing it. The problem I do see is that you have 1 grave spirit and 2 units who need it.

[Calmdown]

If you're going to play Nico, ditch Mortimer, he is totally useless. 7ss of a fun model, who's utility is minimal at best.

He's very good if you make a lot of use of him. For example, when you're using Fresh Meat to give walks to Nico and 8 dogs, it's very much worth it. Fresh Meat has enough range to also be valid on turn 2 even if Morty didnt move. Necrotic Machine can make him Undead so he walks too. You can also flip a free corpse counter turn 1 with a low crow, which is like adding a free Belle/Punk Zombie to your list. If you take holdout, he can lineback for you once he's done.

He's not an auto include by any means but he's definitely worth his points in the right situation and list.

no mention of rafkin? sounds like in that other thread he brings nico up a few notches?

He does cool stuff, but he also slows you down and requires your list to be built around him, which is often antithetical to certain strategies and schemes.

I feel like Nico NEEDs the corpse counters to stay effective, as he cannot win a game on his own like most of the more competitive masters. In my experience if he cant replenish his lines, he starts to become a lonely model. Rigor Mortis is awesome, but like other posts have mentioned, you almost need initiative to make it effective. I'm not saying that the summon factory of old is the play style, but I think he needs to make use of corpse counters.

Hit the nail on the head really. You need initiative AND almost one soulstone per cast to make Rigor Mortis effective. The same with Decay, really, unless you're just using it for healing and a few 2-pt heals isn't the greatest use of a master's valuable AP.

Kirai is so very different from the rest. She is awesome, but I think she lacks a damage spell IMHO. I find HER to be boring in regards to what she does, but the rest of her crew are just so freakin' cool it's so hard not to play her.

Totally agree with this too. She herself is a bit boring. The crew is hella fun.

I apologize if it came across as something other than that.

Not at all, it didn't. I was just giving some reasoning behind my argument.

It's pretty difficult to offend me on a forum. If you're gonna give it, you have to be able to take it as well

[TimeLapse]

Forgive me, but your post is pure theory as all of your tactics assume your opponent does not counter your very counterable tactics.

I play Nicodem and I'm well aware that he can win games, like any master in Malifaux can. However, thats no reaaon to overstate his abilities; he is not a strong master.

He is by no means a weak one either.

On the same note I think you are way understating Nicodem. Though this will be a topic I don’t think we will ever agree on. The root of the problem is play style. I am a vary defensive player and I tend to be really good at setting up a good defense line and nicodem is an amazing master for me. On the same note some of the more aggressive masters I think are bad masters for me, even if others think they are the best ones in the game I just can’t play them right since I am at my core a defensive player.

As for me with Nicodem I have won all but one of the 5 tournaments I have taken him to, the one I did not win I placed 2nd. But in no way am I saying he is at the top of the lists of masters, in fact in a tear list I would go with something like this

Top tear (the best masters)

Leveticus, LCB, Pandora, Kari

Tear two,

Hamelin, Sonia with avatar, Colette, Lilith

Tear 3 C Hoffman, mcmorning, Nicodem, perdita, Raspy, the hag, Somerteeth jones, Sonia without avatar

Tear 4 Ramos, Lady J, Victoria’s,

Tear 5 Markus, Seamus

So I don’t put him at the top but he is not at the bottom either, he is average and he is completive. But this is from my own experience with playing each master or against them.

Out of the 25-30 + games I have played with nicodem I have lost only 5 of them tied only one of them and won the rest.

As you said there may be some simple counters to my list, but then there are counters to those ideas, and counters to thoughts, words are cheap and it has been my experience that players will not always have an easy counter to your lists. Just because you can say that there are easy counters to a nicodem list does not invade the points I made because the chances that you will play list made just to beat yours with just the right models to counter everything you do is next to impossible. In fact I have won games with nicodem where I have summed nothing, using only bolster undead to win the day. I have played vs. C Hoffman Immune to Influence robots of "I am leaving you no corpse counters" lists and came out on top because I picked models that help me with getting my VPs.

As I said I don’t see us seeing eye to eye on this idea but I don’t think I can let players think that nicadem is a weak master because he is not, he is average and completive.

Edited February 29, 2012 by TimeLapse

[Cunning]

Top tear (the best masters)

Leveticus, LCB, Pandora, Kari

Tear two,

Hamelin, Sonia with avatar, Colette, Lilith

Tear 3 C Hoffman, mcmorning, Nicodem, perdita, Raspy, the hag, Somerteeth jones, Sonia without avatar

Tear 4 Ramos, Lady J, Victoria’s,

Tear 5 Markus, Seamus

Wow that's very different from a similar list I'd put together. I'm guessing the main issue being your local meta is completely different from the UK scene. Viks and Lady J in tier 4? Hamelin only tier 2?

Very different indeed.

[Calmdown]

Top tear (the best masters)

Leveticus, LCB, Pandora, Kari

Tear two,

Hamelin, Sonia with avatar, Colette, Lilith

Tear 3 C Hoffman, mcmorning, Nicodem, perdita, Raspy, the hag, Somerteeth jones, Sonia without avatar

Tear 4 Ramos, Lady J, Victoria’s,

Tear 5 Markus, Seamus

Your play experience is clearly defined by a small group of players playing certain masters. For you to think Hamelin is tier 2 shows us that you do not have a good enough Hamelin player. For you to say Lilith is Tier 2 with him shows us you must have a good Lilith player. For you to put Victorias and Lady J so low down shows that you have inexperienced players playing them. To have Levi in Tier 1 shows us you have a very good player running him. And for you to be winning tourneys in this environment, it's likely you're probably better than all of these players.

In an environment where you have lots of good players playing these lists, you'd see the tiers work out differently (because your tiers are pretty much flat wrong). You're misinterpreting good players doing well with whatever they play to mean that what they're playing is good. It's a common mistake and very prevalent on these forums. In time as your group expands and your players get better, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Calmdown