Valcurdra Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Who cares what people say on the forums its totally irrelevant to your gaming experience. Forums are full of a few influential players who like to make statements about how they see the balance in high level games. These opinion's may be correct or not. Either way they are completely irrelevant to most players because they and their opponents are nowhere near the skill cap for their respective masters. When influential players call a master weak less experienced players like to use this as an excuse for losing games with said master when in reality it is mostly poor play that costs them victory. It happens on the forums for every game. Your better off ignoring the hype and just enjoying the game for what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Who cares what people say on the forums its totally irrelevant to your gaming experience. Forums are full of a few influential players who like to make statements about how they see the balance in high level games. These opinion's may be correct or not. Either way they are completely irrelevant to most players because they and their opponents are nowhere near the skill cap for their respective masters. When influential players call a master weak less experienced players like to use this as an excuse for losing games with said master when in reality it is mostly poor play that costs them victory. It happens on the forums for every game. Your better off ignoring the hype and just enjoying the game for what it is. You are kind of right in theory but wrong in approach. Yes, many players will lose to inexperience regardless of what master they play. But if they're running Seamus vs Hamelin, for example, they're going to have a much rougher time than if they played Kirai instead. Balance theory applies equally across all experience levels, and inexperienced people may not be able to see why their chosen master is so bad and want to be reassured that it is not just them, even experienced players have a hard time doing what they're trying to do. In any case, most people who post on forums post on forums specifically because they want the opinions of more experienced players, or players who have a competitive bent, and so on. As nice as it is to pretend we all live in fluffy happy lollipop land, most people want advice to improve the weak parts of their game so that they can get better and win more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBurner Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I have played against Seamus, quite literally, dozens of times, but I have yet to actually lose to him. I've used masters from both book 1 and 2, and even ran a straight Henchman list against him. He's fantastic in terms of fluff, but that's about where it ends. I just picked him up today for demoing because he's fairly straightforward, and doesn't reach to the same level as some of there other masters. I love Seamus, I'll always think fondly of him, but I don't think that him or his crew can get a job done alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valcurdra Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 You are kind of right in theory but wrong in approach. Yes, many players will lose to inexperience regardless of what master they play. But if they're running Seamus vs Hamelin, for example, they're going to have a much rougher time than if they played Kirai instead. Balance theory applies equally across all experience levels, and inexperienced people may not be able to see why their chosen master is so bad and want to be reassured that it is not just them, even experienced players have a hard time doing what they're trying to do. In any case, most people who post on forums post on forums specifically because they want the opinions of more experienced players, or players who have a competitive bent, and so on. As nice as it is to pretend we all live in fluffy happy lollipop land, most people want advice to improve the weak parts of their game so that they can get better and win more. There are a few problems with what you say here firstly and most obviously it assumes that experienced players actually know what they are talking about. Maybe you are right and Seamus is weak or maybe there are some great moves which you haven't discovered yet. There is no way for someone reading your posts to know without playing against you and even then it would be hard to say. Also as a philosophy of practicality if I ignore what you say about balance and focus on playing better each game I will inevitably win more games and so that's what I choose to do. Seeking the opinions of others to improve your game is fine. Talking about balance is the opposite of that. It will not improve your play in any way and will only provide an excuse for losing. It will also increase your frustration level and lower your enjoyment of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Seamus ended my Marcus non-losing streak of 39 games. I now hate Seamus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 This means you must now play Seamus and win with him. It's a Sign! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Seamus ended my Marcus non-losing streak of 39 games. I now hate Seamus. I imagine all the beasts being all/mostly living helped Seamus quite a bit. Played against him today and my opponent made a very appropriate comment. He said concerning Seamus' 0 actions: "you either want to use them all or none of them." Kind of nails his design issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagapul Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 I do not hate seamus, I Love!!! him! He is one of the best Masters in Malifaux! If played right he is very very difficult to kill, his Team works together perfectly and he is just Fun to play! You don't need difficult tacticas to use him, which makes him a perfect starter Master and he has the strongest ranged Weapon I know. I don't understand why someone can hate Seamus. Okay, maybe he is not as strong as Hamelin or the Dreamer, but he's a good one and so much fun to play + play against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_madhatter1 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Well his gun is good if you can actually hit with it... Sure once I shot misaki out of the game on turn 1 but it did cost me a soulstone. He was my first Master ande he is certainly fun, but I think he could do with an upgrade to make him competitive. Edited February 11, 2012 by the_madhatter1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 His gun is honestly pretty lackluster, really. The only thing it has going for it is a great damage spread. Cb 5, one shot per turn and no triggers mean that its damage is easily overshadowed by other models. Admittedly it's a pretty decent ranged weapon by Resurrectionist standards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Rg 8 though, which means that if you are in range to shoot, you are in range to be charged by whatever you are shooting at if you don't kill it. I however agree with Kadeton, his gun is so lackluster I don't understand the fuss that is made about it, plus it is neutralized the moment anything locks Seamus in combat. Given how the game has evolved, a Cb 5 gun with a spread of 4/6/7 with no triggers associated with it is hardly overpowered enough to warrant the only "once per turn" rule. But again I agree with the changes Calmdown suggested. Heck I'd settle for Live for Pain just losing the ranged icon, and give Seamus an ability similar to the Dreamer's Master of Dreams, but for Belles instead of nightmares. It wouldn't put Seamus in the top Master league, but at least it would feel like Seamus could actually do something once the opponent ties him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryHarrison Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Doing Badly with Seamus does not appear to have anything to do with skill level. If your opponent brings a non-terrifiable crew that does not drop corpse counters you are pretty screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JisaacT Posted February 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Given how the game has evolved, a Cb 5 gun with a spread of 4/6/7 with no triggers associated with it is hardly overpowered enough to warrant the only "once per turn" rule. There is a trigger with his gun. It's excesssive bleeding. It makes target hit insignificant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 That trigger is only available to his Bag O' Tools strikes. It is not applicable to his gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 There are a few problems with what you say here firstly and most obviously it assumes that experienced players actually know what they are talking about. Maybe you are right and Seamus is weak or maybe there are some great moves which you haven't discovered yet. There is no way for someone reading your posts to know without playing against you and even then it would be hard to say. Also as a philosophy of practicality if I ignore what you say about balance and focus on playing better each game I will inevitably win more games and so that's what I choose to do. Seeking the opinions of others to improve your game is fine. Talking about balance is the opposite of that. It will not improve your play in any way and will only provide an excuse for losing. It will also increase your frustration level and lower your enjoyment of the game. So, if I'm understanding you right, you're saying that if you ignore the naysayers and focus on improving your level of play, your game will improve and you will win more. So, my question is, what happens when I have the same attitude, only while you're playing Shamus, I'm playing Zoraida with a set of the Twins and a pair of Stitched, a Young Nephilim*, and a Terror Tot versus thirty-five points of whatever Shamus brings to the table? That list give me four models that don't care about Shamus's primary schtick (Terrifying) at all, one model that only cares if it flips a black joker, and two models that I just took because I had eleven soulstones left and figured some objective grabbers would be handy. That is not theoryfaux either, I ran that versus a guy playing Shamus about three weeks ago. It was pretty brutal. He did manage to murder my Terror Tot and scare the Young Nephil off the edge of the board, but the bulk of my force just didn't care what he did and I ended up winning six to two. The avatar did manifest towards the end of the game, but he only got a single activation with it before the tournament organizer called time for the round, and even had we played a full six turns, I was pretty well positioned by that point. I suppose it's possible that there with other Ressurectionist minions that could have saved him (I don't know, I don't play Rezzers and don't have the books on hand), but that wouldn't have had anything to do with Shamus, meaning that he'd likely have been better off with another master. Keep in mind that I'm not saying this to discourage other players. When I'm playing, I want both myself and my opponent to have a good time, and part of that for me is a matchup that is both challenging and fair for both players. I don't enjoy stomping on a helpless opponent, nor do I enjoy trying to footslog towards my opponent while he leaps forward, kills a substantial portion of my force, then zips back to his deployment zone while I can do nothing to retaliate. If anything, I bring these things up in the hopes that the game designers will see these complaints and address them, resulting in a better game. Pretending problems don't exist doesn't make them go away. *Somes I feel like the only person on Earth who knows that the "-im" suffix indicates a plural for that and other related Hebrew words, and this makes my inner grammar pedant sad. :Confused_Puppet1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 So, if I'm understanding you right, you're saying that if you ignore the naysayers and focus on improving your level of play, your game will improve and you will win more. So, my question is, what happens when I have the same attitude, only while you're playing Shamus, I'm playing Zoraida with a set of the Twins and a pair of Stitched, a Young Nephilim*, and a Terror Tot versus thirty-five points of whatever Shamus brings to the table? That list give me four models that don't care about Shamus's primary schtick (Terrifying) at all, one model that only cares if it flips a black joker, and two models that I just took because I had eleven soulstones left and figured some objective grabbers would be handy. That is not theoryfaux either, I ran that versus a guy playing Shamus about three weeks ago. It was pretty brutal. He did manage to murder my Terror Tot and scare the Young Nephil off the edge of the board, but the bulk of my force just didn't care what he did and I ended up winning six to two. The avatar did manifest towards the end of the game, but he only got a single activation with it before the tournament organizer called time for the round, and even had we played a full six turns, I was pretty well positioned by that point. I suppose it's possible that there with other Ressurectionist minions that could have saved him (I don't know, I don't play Rezzers and don't have the books on hand), but that wouldn't have had anything to do with Shamus, meaning that he'd likely have been better off with another master. Fact is that most people giving advice on forums assume that opponents are incompetent. Its pretty much a constant here too. People ask, "how do i beat x" and others respond "its easy, just do y" without any consideration for the fact that an opponent will see y coming a mile off. People also have a habit of saying "this model isnt unbalanced, i win with it / beat it all the time" ignoring again external factors. Its just the way forums are. Youll never get through to people who arent capable of understanding basic rationales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 @CN - If you know you're going up against neverborn, then you can more or less assume a crew like that, even if Z is a bit of a weird match up for it. In response just take a crew that's good against it. Heck, that's considered a 'strong' build neverborn tbh, and I'd love to play it with my arcanist crew, it's when people bring stuff totally outside the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 If I'm going up against Neverborn in a tournament, I ain't tak'in Seamus laddie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 If I'm going up against Neverborn in a tournament, I ain't tak'in Seamus laddie. But if you only have Seamus, or you've only brought him for whatever reason, you just have to adapt how you play instead of using the same ol' tactics that work vs living stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Fact is that most people giving advice on forums assume that opponents are incompetent. Its pretty much a constant here too. People ask, "how do i beat x" and others respond "its easy, just do y" without any consideration for the fact that an opponent will see y coming a mile off. People also have a habit of saying "this model isnt unbalanced, i win with it / beat it all the time" ignoring again external factors. Its just the way forums are. Youll never get through to people who arent capable of understanding basic rationales. Oh, I am well aware of the fact that fans of a particular game/book/movie/TV show/artist/etc... will make excuses for its failings. That's absolutely inevitable; people don't want to face the cognitive dissonance that comes with knowing something they like has flaws. But refusing to acknowledge the problems and getting upset when someone else does doesn't help, it just makes it less likely that the problem will be brought to the attention of someone in a position to fix it. It's doubly ironic in this case because, from what I've seen so far, the good people at Wyrd are at least trying to address issues like this; they interact with their customers, answer questions, issues errata, and at the rate they're going, I'm fairly certain we'll have fixes for the Dreamer and maybe Hamelin by 2015 at the latest. As long as concerns are bought up in a polite, reasonable way, I strongly doubt their feelings with be hurt too badly. @CN - If you know you're going up against neverborn, then you can more or less assume a crew like that, even if Z is a bit of a weird match up for it. In response just take a crew that's good against it. Heck, that's considered a 'strong' build neverborn tbh, and I'd love to play it with my arcanist crew, it's when people bring stuff totally outside the box. In fairness to my weird matchup, my choices at the time were either Lilith or Zoraida, I'd only had Zoraida put together for about a week at that point, and the strategy was shared Claim Jump; I figured Obey on my own guys for extra movement and charging might have been a good idea. I don't have every Neverborn minion either, unfortunately, since I'm currently living on student loans and a grant for doing miscellaneous tasks for one of my professors, so I've got to make leisure purchases carefully. Also, I never claimed I was an especially good crew builder. I can't buy everything I want to use, and, and I've only been playing for four, maybe five months now. The point was that if my thrown together Neverborn crew renders my more-experienced opponent's force mostly useless, that's a sign that his choice of master and/or minions was subpar. If I'm going up against Neverborn in a tournament, I ain't tak'in Seamus laddie. And thus the entire point of this debate is neatly summed up. Unfortunately, it's possible that some people only have the money or time to invest in one crew, and while Shamus may perform well in some situations, there are going to be others in which he falls flat on his face. People who are thinking about investing in him should know that, so they don't become frustrated and disillusioned with the game. Edited February 12, 2012 by CN the Logos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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