Mehena Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I've been wracking my brain trying to find a situation where they would work or some trick with them that would make taking them worthwhile over the other possible objective grabbers (read Night Terrors) and I just cant find one. Ultimately I think it boils down to one glaring problem. Curiosity calls, The Mist, and a walk action all taking 1 AP. Night terrors synergize so well in a flock thanks to the move for 1, 0 to flock, move for 1 chain allowing you to move a group of them up the board quickly to an objective and leaving the final Terror able to interact. Crooligans on the otherhand, even with From the Shadows deployment have total available move as a group of basically nothing. Move 4 for 1 ap, cast the Mist for 1 requiring an 8:masks or higher second Crooligan activates Curiosity Calls for 1 AP moving 5" and walks once for 4" for a total move on 9" and ending any possible movement chain. Even deploying 12" from an objective you are now 3" shy of doing anything while the Night Terrors have reached and interracted with said objective. I love the models and would desperately love to get them off the shelf and onto the game table but they just put you at such a disadvantage I cannot see using them. If however The Mist became a 0 action, with or without losing the requirement of an 8:masks or higher, Crooligans would gain the ability to function as objective grabbers in lists where spirits are not an ideal choice and as a resser player I would not feel like 3 Night Terrors were basically a tax which had to be paid for any game requiring movement to objectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Sandwich argues that Crooligans are not really objective grabbers. You are very right in that as far as objective runners go, that ressers already have two very solid models to fill that role, and that Crolligans are by far the most sub optimal choice that could be made for that role. They are your only option if you take a Molly lead crew however. Sandwich argues that what Crooigans are actually good at is guarding objectives from opponents. Camp them on top of the ojective, put up the Mist and just sit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehena Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 The problem I run into when trying to consider them as an objective defender is that if what you need them to guard is outside your deployment zone the dedicated objective grabbers will be there and long gone before the Crooligans can arrive and if it is near your deployment there are plenty of other models which have a far greater capacity to actually defend said objective. For an extra point for example you could park a cb7, paired, good damage line punk to mince any objective grabbers that come near. For the same points you could guard a near objective with a belle with the added benefit of being able to affect positioning around the rest of the battlefield. Maybe for line in the sand but even that i feel is stretching it just to get them out of the display case. Dont get me wrong I'm not hating on the Crooligans quite the opposite. I really really want them to be good for something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I actually found a pretty good use for them that I intend to use in a local tournament in a couple of weeks: Hire 3 of them (I'm using Molly as well). Send one to the left. Send one to the right. Keep one close to the leader (in this case, McM). Link the Grave Spirit (which is connected to Molly) to the one close to the leader Each turn, use the first 2 activations to Wk+Mist with the Crooligans (since McM wants to activate late in the turn anyway). Suddenly, you have Molly's (1) spells threatening the entire board at a somewhat respectable Ca of 3:crows. Also keep in mind that since the GS doesn't have to move himself, it can focus Magical Extension. It can cast Terrible Secret off an 11 (save it for those times when you REALLY need it), or after Molly takes McM's Wracked with Pain, the grave spirit can cast it off a 9+, which isn't horrible considering the threat range. Or maybe she takes a belle's Distract, and now off a 9+, the GS is giving you another opportunity to Slow everything, even those units that are too slow to keep up with the rest. I know people gripe about Molly's whispered Secret, but as long as she doesn't cast the (1) spell, she only needs to get it off once, and really, in the first, say 3 turns of the game you have less odds of not seeing a 5:crows than you do of seeing one. And in this specific crew, save for McM's ressing, which needs a much higher :crows than a 5, the suits aren't as required. As for other fastish models, you can't do this with Night Terrors (if you're using them as intended) because they want to stay in a group generally so the threat range isn't as good. And Armor +2 on the crooligan that bounces around is nice too. Edited February 1, 2012 by brdparker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 That's really a neat Idea. I'm not certain that I think it's worth the points you spend to be able to do it, but still a neat idea. I might have to try it in one of the fun games I play. Nice thinking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehena Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Brd that's actually a fairly neat trick I do have to admit. How effective a combo it is for 22SS however I'm not quite sure. That would leave 11SS for hiring the remainder of your crew while still maintaining your max cache. It also would give the opponent an activation in between moving the Crooligan and its linked Grave Spirit, as the Grave Spirit may be linked and move with the Crooligan but it can still only companion with it's Master, and activating with the Magical Extension cast. That's really quite creative though and that is one of the reasons I've come to love Malifaux so! Could perhaps Molly copy Curiosity Calls and Jump with a linked totem giving you possibly two casts of Philosophy of Uncertainty with the linked totem and Molly. Or Reveal Philip after moving into the middle of a terror vulnerable group of enemies. Not sure if Molly can copy Curiosity Calls though as it is a 1 Action not a 1 Spell. Edited February 1, 2012 by Mehena New Idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Um... that sequence seems off. Surely it's more like: Crooligans 1 and 2 start just over 12" from objective (due to From the Shadows). Crooligan 1 casts The Mist (requiring an 8+ of any suit) for 1 AP, and walks 6" (due to +2 Wk from The Mist) for 1 AP. Crooligan 2 uses Curiosity Calls to Place itself in front of Crooligan 2, and walks 6" into base contact with the objective. (Next turn, cast The Mist then Interact for a 6" Push towards the next objective, rinse and repeat.) Not saying they're better than 3 Night Terrors, because those things are OP at 3 SS (Book 2, innit). Just not as bad as you were saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehena Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Hrm in that order Kadeton it is indeed much more effective. Not ending up 3" shy of where you need to be is considerably better. Although I still find myself wishing that the second Crooligan was somehow able to activate the mist itself to bring a 3rd Crooligan up to the group during that turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Having The Mist as a (0) would make them significantly better objective grabbers than Night Terrors, imo. Not saying that's a bad thing, just putting it out there. I'd prefer to see Curiosity Calls as their (0), personally, as it's slightly more situational (whereas if The Mist was a (0) it would be a no-brainer every turn). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 You pay a very heavy cost for that threat. You could generate more board threat by simply taking a normal list. Also, the threat of ca 3 is very questionable. Props for trying to make crooligans work, but they're just too expensive for their stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Um... that sequence seems off. Surely it's more like: Crooligans 1 and 2 start just over 12" from objective (due to From the Shadows). Crooligan 1 casts The Mist (requiring an 8+ of any suit) for 1 AP, and walks 6" (due to +2 Wk from The Mist) for 1 AP. Crooligan 2 uses Curiosity Calls to Place itself in front of Crooligan 2, and walks 6" into base contact with the objective. (Next turn, cast The Mist then Interact for a 6" Push towards the next objective, rinse and repeat.) Not saying they're better than 3 Night Terrors, because those things are OP at 3 SS (Book 2, innit). Just not as bad as you were saying. Ah! I can never remember the From the Shadows ability. Never. I'm not sure why it doesn't stick, but in every games I've played with the Crools, I've forgotten it (sometimes not even realizing it throughout the entire game). As far as the value of the three of them plus Molly (that's 21 pts to the crew)... dunno. We'll see how effective it is at the tournament in a couple of weeks. I expect it to be less so against get right in your face armies such as the dreamer, who have the ability to down the running crools without much difficulty and better against moderate to slower crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JisaacT Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I have had some luck with them before. A few hit and run tactics with them. They held a spot very well though. As long as you have things to interact with their movement is beneficial. Being close to Molly is good enough for a bit of movement plus From the shadows really helps. From a few plays with these guys they are very situational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Crolligans are interesting models. From my games with them I'm throughly convinced they are over costed for what they do. The fog they generate only being 3 inches the odd movement abilities and benefits from molly all interesting and almost say there's something here. But then I look over to the left and I have Night Terrors and I look right and I have Necropunks both of the latters are cheaper stone cost and just plain better for the cost. I keep wanting to like Crooligans even as an interceptor but I can't make them work, as belle's tend to be more survivable interceptors with better utility for the same price, they even gain the similar benefits when near molly. I gotta agree with Calmdown they are overcosted for there stats and ability set when looked for ressers as a whole. Maybe if more things can utilize the mist they'll find more of a home and a use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 We will just have to hope there is a greater plan with Horrors than we have seen yet. Until then My Crooligans stay on the display shelf. I feel I did the girl Crooligan justice with her paint job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_blitzwell Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 when you take molly as a master you dont just have crooligan you have the belles to so the way i would use them is leave the crooligans and lure the guy u want to kill to you then hit and run. other thing i think can work is have molly cope the mist spell(if its legal i dont have book). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehena Posted February 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 You could copy "The Mist". However it would do nothing for Molly except Obscuring. No Crooligans would be able to use Curiosity Calls to jump to Molly's Mist as they must be placed in base to base with a friendly Crooligan in said Mist. The more I think about it the more I lean towards the thought that without a 0AP action, be it The Mist or Curiosity Calls, they're just Display Case models and junk on the table Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I find Necropunks too unreliable to compete with Crooligans, tbh. Needing a 6+ mask for Leap is too much hassle, especially when you're trying to use three of them. I watched a Levi opponent fail all three of his Necropunks' casts three turns in a row a few games ago, which really cemented it for me. Night Terrors are still the default answer to everything, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orboros Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I guess they will find their uses when more Horrors come out. Its currently the most limited special force and maybe there will be a new model that will buff them or directly synergies with them.Regarding objective grabbers, i think Night Terrors are the most effective, not only in- but cross faction and you really have to think twice not to take them.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I could certainly see room for a Unique Crooligan, a sort of gang leader type who could increase their utility. That would be pretty neat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierowmaniac Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Crooligans on the otherhand, even with From the Shadows deployment have total available move as a group of basically nothing. Move 4 for 1 ap, cast the Mist for 1 requiring an 8:masks or higher second Crooligan activates Curiosity Calls for 1 AP moving 5" and walks once for 4" for a total move on 9" and ending any possible movement chain. Even deploying 12" from an objective you are now 3" shy of doing anything while the Night Terrors have reached and interracted with said objective. OK trying to use the Croligans has a objective denial/blocker instead. If you've got Molly you can give the first Crooligan a 9" walk, followed by Mist. 2nd crooligan Curiosity calls and positions itself infront of the 1st crolligan (total 10" so far) then moves 4" for a total 15" move with the 2nd Crooligan, should be just about right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrouchingMoose Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 OK trying to use the Croligans has a objective denial/blocker instead. If you've got Molly you can give the first Crooligan a 9" walk, followed by Mist. 2nd crooligan Curiosity calls and positions itself infront of the 1st crolligan (total 10" so far) then moves 4" for a total 15" move with the 2nd Crooligan, should be just about right Actually, iirc for the first crooligan to have a wk of 9, you would have to use the mist before moving. Then after the second, uses curiosity calls, its in a friendly mist and gets +2 wk...putting it closer to 17" (9 for first crool, ~1 for curiosity calls, 6 for second walk) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 OK trying to use the Croligans has a objective denial/blocker instead. If you've got Molly you can give the first Crooligan a 9" walk, followed by Mist. 2nd crooligan Curiosity calls and positions itself infront of the 1st crolligan (total 10" so far) then moves 4" for a total 15" move with the 2nd Crooligan, should be just about right There is nothing about this tactic that can't be done better, and cheaper, by a night terror. In fact, just about everything crooligans do is just an inferior version of what a night terror does - that's the main reason they don't/shouldn't see play except in themed fluff lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 There is nothing about this tactic that can't be done better, and cheaper, by a night terror. In fact, just about everything crooligans do is just an inferior version of what a night terror does - that's the main reason they don't/shouldn't see play except in themed fluff lists. I largely agree. The sole benefit they have currently is they are undead, which helps: Nico's buffs, GS's armor bonus (which shows in the above tactic), Moritmer's Fresh Meat, Nurses' sac abilities, and can be ressed by Nico and Molly Night Terrors have none of that, but I also question whether or not it's worth it (for an extra point and rather less utility). Maybe we're looking at more undead buffs in the next book to make it really worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I largely agree. The sole benefit they have currently is they are undead, which helps: Nico's buffs, GS's armor bonus (which shows in the above tactic), Moritmer's Fresh Meat, Nurses' sac abilities, and can be ressed by Nico and Molly Night Terrors have none of that, but I also question whether or not it's worth it (for an extra point and rather less utility). Maybe we're looking at more undead buffs in the next book to make it really worth it? I think your faiths a little misplaced - nothing so far has shown us that Wyrd are aware of or have any intention of fixing the useless crap in some factions or balancing out the game (and Twisting Fates pretty much just proved this point with it's incredibly poor minions). You've got to assume at some point there'll be a rules and maye even model overhaul again but I wouldn't run bad models in the meantime in an effort to get used to them waiting for this; much better to stick with what's good. That said, a good player never discounts any model 100%. There's just a strong chance that discounting Crooligans, for now, is a good idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 That said, a good player never discounts any model 100%. I look forward to seeing you running Hoarcat Prides soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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