molly help

[col_blitzwell]

so i am planing to playing molly but i am having trouble with how she works. the thing i am having the most trouble with is the crooligans. they don't seem to do much.

[Sandwich]

The community has you covered here, pal.

This thread - http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27738

Is pretty dedicated to Molly, and gives you some basic outlines of her.

Then you've got a few words on the Dead Doxy,

Dead Doxy - 5 Soul Stones

The Dead doxy is the new Belle introduced in the third expansion of Malifaux, Rising Powers. She fills a specific niche that is more tailor-made for a Seamus crew, that is, the in-combat summon damage / support.

A big problem most players are going to have when looking at the Doxy for the first time is that she brings very little to the table for Seamus (Or any other Resurrectionist master, for that matter.) She's got the standard 'Low Df, Hard to Wound, moderate Wd' combo that most Resser models have. However, the Dead Doxy also has Strangly Attractive, which makes them pretty effective Spell Tanks versus quite a few crews that rely on multiple models laying down the law. It also works to slow down crews like Von Schill (Or several Vicky lists) from absolutely chewing you apart. Keep in mind it's a Simple duel, so Stubborn won't come into effect and no talent can ignore it.

Doxies are fairly more mobile than Belles, they only have a maximum Wk of 7, (9 with Molly, 12 with (1)Imbue Vigor) which is only 1 higher than your standard Belle, but they also get a Ca 7 push that has a debuff attached to it, so they do move significantly faster than your run of the mill Belle.

They're fairly solid 5 Pt. models without Molly Squidpiddge, with a decently reliable debuff that has incredibly powerful reprecussions (:-fate to Defense and Resist duels spells certain death in most cases. Their (1)Undress will work only slightly better than a Rotten Belle's but does help to increase the usage of the spell because you often spend all of a Rotten Belle's AP on (1)Lure.

If you're bringing in Molly Squidpiddge, the Doxies' (1)Seduction can be stolen and then cast with a Ca 7 and Use Soulstone, which pretty well ensures a successful cast.

(1)Seduction is probably in the top 5 most powerful spells in the game, especially with Resurrectionists (Or Levi.) Because they're all very spell reliant, (Yes, even McMourning needs to cast spells) and (1)Seduction downright guarantees things going your way on whoever is afflicted.

- - - - -

Abilities

Flirtatious Wink: Gives the Doxy 7 Ca when casting (0)Inviting Approach. This is often either an autowin, or a forced high card. It makes the Doxy fairly menacing in most games because it allows her to drop onto a model, cuddle its defenses, and then still have 2 AP to run the hell away. (Or try, try again.)

Hard to Wound 1: Makes this girls super tanks, even with 6 Wd, against ranged and spell crews. Moderate Wp makes them pretty hard to hit in the first place with a lot of spells and medium low Df means that you can actually compete in flips with smaller models.

Part of the Harem: Just lets Seamus summon them. Which is always a good idea to do as soon as possible. Always gauge the situation, "Who would be better here, a Rock(Rotten Belles) or a Hard Place(Dead Doxy)?" Remember Rotten Belles have a higher melee Cb than Doxies and will be better for keeping a model in place, but Doxies can whittle down an enemy model and run away easily. So pick wisely which you're summoning.

Shambling: Standard issue mobility buff.

Slow to Die: I'll explain a trick on when this is great in a second.

Strangely Attractive: Models 4" or more away targeting the Doxy with an Attack have to win a Wp->12 duel or the Action immediately fails. Please for the love of [generic deity] do NOT forget about this ability. A Doxy can stand in front of a gun line and flash them all in to absolute failure. It's ridiculously powerful for such a simple ability.

Actions

(1)Final Encore: This is pretty useless unless you have the Avatar of Dread on the table. Why? Because then all of your models become Terrifying->12. If a model has already pass the Terrifying Duel to hit the Doxy and you pull a switcheroo, that model has to beat ANOTHER Terrifying->12 immediately. It took me a little to figure this out but it is stupid powerful with Avatar Seamus. Try it out a few times and tell me how many people go for the Doxy afterwards.

Triggers

Fatal Distraction: Gives you a free swing if you succeed in casting (1)Seduction or (1)Undress. It's an autotrigger for (1)Seduction because you need to flip a :tomes anyway. You'll occasionally hit things with your gun, so it's always worth a try if you can pull it off.

Rot: It's nice when you flip a crow in a melee strike, but I just don't really see the practicality of it. This trigger is present for the fluff and nothing more.

Regret: Super situational defensive trigger, works great when it works, completely forgotten when it doesn't. It's nice to stop Teddy from instabanning your Doxy, but doesn't do much else.

Spells

(0)Inviting Approach: Usually an autocast, you need 6 of anything to get it off. It gives you a free push towards a model and a free (1)Seduction if you end within 4" of that model, which you usually will. Fairly powerful mobility tool.

(1)Seduction: Has a pretty difficult cast, you need a moderate-high :tomes to get it to go, but it has incredibly destructive capabilities. A :-fate to Defense and Resist duels usually spell D E A D for whatever model failed to resist. It can be annoying when you have this spell and no reliable means to cast it, but when you've got that high :tomes sitting in your hand and a 9 point model right down the road, it feels great.

(1)Undress: Moderate CC, decent debuff. You'll be casting this more often with the Doxy than your Rotten Belles, so don't be shy to blast an enemy model with a Focus Cast undress to pave the way for Seamus' gun, or meaty green giant fists.

- - - -

Final Thoughts,

1. Is the Dead Doxy worth getting?

Hell yes it is. They're powerful niche models with high mobility, powerful defense and sleeper OP Spell. It's great to drop a fate twist bomb on a clutch model and then just wreck it with your crew. They're low cost models with a high movement rate so starting with them isn't always taboo, and they can be summoned into the middle of things if you're in a pinch.

2. What counters the Dead Doxy?

Fast models. The Doxy is pretty solid in the defensive area, and is moderate high speed compared to a lot of other models. But anything that can outrun her will just leave her in the dust. You can always focus down bigger models with the Doxy but if your opponent is someone like Colette, you'll just be constantly frustrated with how little they accomplish.

3. What does the Dead Doxy Counter?

High Risk, High Reward models like Von Schill, Cassandra, Shikome, or Nix. She can easily lock down models when you couple her with a Belle, can drop a bomb on objective Grabbers and can escape a lot of dreary situations that players will use for counters versus her.

4. How well does a Doxy work for

• McMourning: Badly, sort of. They can move with your crew and increase McMourning or Simulcrum's damage output, but that's about it. You've got far better tanks and way better damage dealers than the Doxy that will be replaceable. I'd skip the Doxy for this one.
  
• Nicodem: Pretty great. They can be summoned, so mobility isn't an issue. They're great tools to use with Punk Zombies and can actually deal respectable damage because of (0)Bolster Undead. Definately suggest using them.
  
• Kirai: They aren't terrible, but most experienced players will skip them. I haven't had much playtime with a Doxy and Kirai so I can't say definitively, but, they're too slow, don't fit the meta and aren't very useful for anything.
  
• Leveticus: You tell me, I've never tried it.
  

And of course as your biggest concern, we've got your Crooligans down, too.

My opinion on them,

Okay guys, I figured them out, and they're in a very specific hole but it works.

We need to stop thinking of them as Objective grabbers and more of model-bogs.

Meaning, they can sit on top of a Claim Jump, Treasure chest, or Dynamite and pop (1)The Mist and just never die.

I just ran a game against the freakin' Dreamer and used them to stop him from hitting ANY of his Line in the Sand markers. With Df 7 and the Ability to gain Spirit pretty stupid easy, not even LCB and Coppelius could wreck this kid.

I suppose Molly's support made it ridiculously hard to do anything for him, also.

I'm going to say with Molly's :-fate on Defense flips you could probably use a Crooligan to lock down a model pretty freakin hard, too.

That's their role guys, they're model prisons.

Q'iq'el points out some very useful tricks you should be keen to practicing with.

I think the problem with any SS cost in the Rezzer faction is that the models are priced not only for what they are, but also for what they will become.

Crooligans, if they were regular pop-and-gone models, wouldn't probably be worth their price, but they will die and become something more useful as the game progresses. The SS cost thus reflects not only the need to price the model correctly, but also the need to limit the number of potential Corpse Counters available to the Resurrectionist crew at the start of the game.

Personally I proxied them with Nicodem and I was very happy with the result. I think you guys are missing on some really nasty tricks they can do.

My favorite is to fling some dirt (Mortimer) on an unactivated Crooligan to turn it spirit, so that it can walk to an objective inside of a building/behind a tall wall, capture it and then move back its extra push.

Makes it nearly impossible to defend objectives.

And teleports are some of the most powerful effects in this game. Crooligans come with two. I would find it very very hard to justify a (0) AP teleport, especially on a model that cheap.

Don't forget they also are Molly troops. She doesn't have much more she can field right now and she can lead a crew in her own right. For Nicodem I probably would take exactly 2 most of the time, unless the scenario was really objective-intensive.

And then there's what JisaacT thinks, which is more of them as hit-and-run kind of models.

Hey guys so I played the crooligans for the first time last night and I was actually impressed with these little guys. I was only playing an intro game with my girlfriend (it was her first time playing) but these little guys deserve more credit.

What I did was I had 2 crooligans go far left and 1 go to the right. As turn 2 or 3 commenced the lone crooligan1 ran right up the center of the map and popped up (1) The Mist. He was then lured and sybelle ran up to beat on him.

Time to activate the other crooligans. The crooligan2 did (1) Curiosity Calls and was in base contact with crooligan1. Used his 2nd point to hit sybelle. Same for crooligan3 he came from the left side in base contact with crooligan1 and beat on sybelle.

Next turn I gained the initiative activated crooligan1 and did return to sender (to molly) and was out of harms way.

Moral of the story hit and run tactics with these guys. They did great running like that bringing in the other crooligans, then they all backed off after they got a melee strike in!

[col_blitzwell]

thanks for the help sandwich was a real eye opener to molly's true power.

last question i have is does she need lots of ss(like 4-5) i thinking of running her with 2ish most of the time because she seems like she need more troops them ss.

[Sandwich]

thanks for the help sandwich was a real eye opener to molly's true power.

last question i have is does she need lots of ss(like 4-5) i thinking of running her with 2ish most of the time because she seems like she need more troops them ss.

Yeah, she's fine with around 3 stones because of how many safety nets she has available.

[fritz the cat]

no quote cred. sad panda >.<

But anyways, I've found when you dont rely on molly to do too much, but to just kind of spread a little help to alot of minions she tends to be most successful (3-0-0 in limited play)

And like sandwich said, minimize her stones, she doesnt need too many- maybe one for a critical slow to die heal and a couple for critical debuffs, and having more models for her to support is always good.

Im thinking that a key to winning with her is learning how to spread her debuffs/buffs around. The crew does a bit to everyone so its not like a standard debuffer/buffer where you just focus death/power on one model. You need to learn how to spread her resources around to aid the group as a whole

Edited January 1, 2012 by fritz the cat

[Omenbringer]

Just to add, the only thing I really use Soulstones for with Molly is to feed the Necrotic Machine when it casts The Philosophy of Uncertainty. Other than that I run her with minimal stones.

[fritz the cat]

Just to add, the only thing I really use Soulstones for with Molly is to feed the Necrotic Machine when it casts The Philosophy of Uncertainty. Other than that I run her with minimal stones.

im still really skeptical about using the necrotic machine wtih molly. Gravespirit adds such a level of toughness to an already tough crew. and CA3 vs 4 can be a pretty big dif for that one critical spell

[Omenbringer]

There are a lot of reasons to run the Necrotic Machine vice the Grave Spirit as Molly's Totem:

1. She can bring the Machine back and repair him (making it posible to cast The Philosophy of Uncertainty several times and adding to his durability).
2. The Grave Spirit has a Ca of 3 vs the Necrotic Machine's Ca of 4 (so those spells are a bit easier to pull off).
3. Necro has a better Cb and better damage potential.
4. Armor from the Grave Spirit (while nice) is very easily countered by just killing it in melee (prior to striking at the linked model which will more than likely in B2B contact to preserve the link).
5. Lastly, the Necro drops a corpse counter when killed where as the Grave Spirit doesn't (providing half of the requirement to bring it back via Undead Construction).

For only 1 more SS, the choice is easy for me.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Omenbringer

[col_blitzwell]

hers a list that i planed out as a starting point of what to buy for a 25ss

Molly Squidpiddge

Grave Spirit 1ss

Crooligan4ss

Crooligan4ss

Crooligan4ss

Madame Sybelle6ss

Rotten Belles4ss

Rotten Belles4ss

and has 3 ss left

should i drop sybelle?

[Omenbringer]

No she is your main damage producer in that list.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Kadeton]

Well, the Necrotic Machine only costs 1 extra SS, has better stats (including Ca 4 vs 3 as you mentioned, and Cb 4 vs 2 with the possibility of Poison 3) and is nearly as hard to kill... but the main reason I can see to choose the Necrotic Machine over the Grave Spirit is to give you an avenue for casting The Philosophy of Uncertainty. The Necrotic Machine is essentially expendable, whereas the Grave Spirit isn't.

Edit: totally ninja'd.

[Omenbringer]

Edit: totally ninja'd.

20 minutes difference is hardly ninja'd :aetsch:

[brdparker]

The Necrotic Machine is essentially expendable, whereas the Grave Spirit isn't.

Why not? Would you be able to start with the Grave Spirit, Philosophy it to death, and summon a Nec Machine? Might not be a phenomenal thing, but it'd certainly be legal.

[Omenbringer]

Why not? Would you be able to start with the Grave Spirit, Philosophy it to death, and summon a Nec Machine? Might not be a phenomenal thing, but it'd certainly be legal.

Though you could do that, the Grave Spirit doesn't really add much to the crew other than a 1 SS hiring savings.

Additionally since I forgot about it earlier, another benefit of the Necrotic Machine compared to the Grave Spirit is in mobility (Link has the annoying disadvantage of binding the two models together).

[fritz the cat]

Though you could do that, the Grave Spirit doesn't really add much to the crew other than a 1 SS hiring savings.

Additionally since I forgot about it earlier, another benefit of the Necrotic Machine compared to the Grave Spirit is in mobility (Link has the annoying disadvantage of binding the two models together).

I'd agree that it doesnt necessarily add anything new to the list. but I could argue that the necrotic machine doesnt really either.

What the grave spirit does is accentuate a strength of the list (toughness)

WHile the necrotic machine has a chance to be a one hit wonder, but otherwise just kinda plinks away.

[Sandwich]

Absolutely love the Grave Spirit over the NM.

Belles are fast enough that Link doesn't become an issue and it works exceptionally well with a Summoned Sybelle as she becomes increasingly expendable the further the game drags on, meaning that there's plenty of room to cast philosophy sooner or later without any ill reprocussions.

[Omenbringer]

I'd agree that it doesnt necessarily add anything new to the list. but I could argue that the necrotic machine doesnt really either.

What the grave spirit does is accentuate a strength of the list (toughness)

While the necrotic machine has a chance to be a one hit wonder, but otherwise just kinda plinks away.

The Necrotic Machine adds another decent damage producer (1 successful strike can result in 8 points of damage) that has a better potential to cast her spells and has plenty of durability itself (Hard to Wound, Ability to be fixed when damaged or brought back when killed). And although Spirit will reduce the damage incurred on the Grave spirit it also means it doesn't drop a corpse token when killed (so cant be used as material to make another Belle, Horror or Necrotic Machine via Undead Construction). Further the Grave Spirit only accentuates the Toughness of the model it is linked to and only while it is still alive (a severe hit in melee is probably going to kill it even with the halfing of the damage from Spirit).

Absolutely love the Grave Spirit over the NM.

Belles are fast enough that Link doesn't become an issue and it works exceptionally well with a Summoned Sybelle as she becomes increasingly expendable the further the game drags on, meaning that there's plenty of room to cast philosophy sooner or later without any ill reprocussions.

Link means that the Grave Spirit is on a short leash to the other model (and if they are out of Base to Base during the Start Closing Phase the link ends and will need to be re-established) so its mobility is really limited. Additionally, getting rid of the Armor is as easy as killing the Grave Spirit first (and even though it is protected from being targeted by Ranged attacks and spells because of Strength from Below, it can still be damaged in Melee and by , & :blasts).

Dont get me wrong I like the Grave Spirit in a lot of situations but for Molly (especially when she is acting as a Master), I prefer the Necrotic machine. Your experiences may vary of course.

[rancor709]

Grave spirit armor 2 and 1 ss to boot. The grave spirit is getting my nod. Not the least of which is because I can always raise a necrotic machine if I really want one once the grave spirit is gone. The necrotic machine is a nice damage dealer for 2 stones along with a free healign flip from molly, but he's an extra stone, he's still an insignifant model and while the damage his strike can do is nice, its still not a guarantee for a molly based crew. For the stones I would say the grave spirit is the stronger starting option your mileage may very no warranities intended or given all offers void in Wisconson.

[ukrocky]

+1 for Grave spirit.

Rogue necromancy with armour 2 keeps it alive and 3 headin'

[Oshova]

+1 for Grave spirit.

Rogue necromancy with armour 2 keeps it alive and 3 headin'

Yeah but in a 35SS game I wouldn't always put in a Rogue Necromancy, as they are always targetted first. But definitely worth putting the Grave Spirit on the Rogue Necromancy, probably the only time I would think about taking the Spirit over the Necrotic Machine.

[Sandwich]

Link means that the Grave Spirit is on a short leash to the other model (and if they are out of Base to Base during the Start Closing Phase the link ends and will need to be re-established) so its mobility is really limited. Additionally, getting rid of the Armor is as easy as killing the Grave Spirit first (and even though it is protected from being targeted by Ranged attacks and spells because of Strength from Below, it can still be damaged in Melee and by , & :blasts).

Dont get me wrong I like the Grave Spirit in a lot of situations but for Molly (especially when she is acting as a Master), I prefer the Necrotic machine. Your experiences may vary of course.

Yeah I have absolutely no problem with the Grave Spirit being shackled to the Rogue Necromancy for some odd reason.

And god forbid they kill the poor thing, because then she's free to summon in her other nasty totem.

It works great to keep the RN ticking while it gets into the gooey bits, then it dies, and the NM comes in slinging poison about.

Fun times.

Yeah but in a 35SS game I wouldn't always put in a Rogue Necromancy, as they are always targetted first. But definitely worth putting the Grave Spirit on the Rogue Necromancy, probably the only time I would think about taking the Spirit over the Necrotic Machine.

Err.

This is with Molly as a Master.

In a 35 SS game, she's effectively got 40 SS to hire from.

Her choices are, minus totems,

Rotten Belle

Madame Sybelle

Dead Doxy

Crooligan

Rogue Necromancy

Meaning you have every reason necessary to hire the Rogue Necromancy in a 35 SS game.

It won't even reduce your crew size significantly.

[Oshova]

Err.

This is with Molly as a Master.

In a 35 SS game, she's effectively got 40 SS to hire from.

Her choices are, minus totems,

Rotten Belle

Madame Sybelle

Dead Doxy

Crooligan

Rogue Necromancy

Meaning you have every reason necessary to hire the Rogue Necromancy in a 35 SS game.

It won't even reduce your crew size significantly.

Bleurgh . . . of course . . . Maybe I should concentrate harder . . . Don't me feel like I'm back in school again! =p

But yeah, with Molly as a Master RN is a damn good choice. But that's probably the only time I will take one in a small-ish game.

[Omenbringer]

The grave spirit is getting my nod. Not the least of which is because I can always raise a necrotic machine if I really want one once the grave spirit is gone.

My main problem with this is that the Grave Spirit doesn't leave a corpse token because of the Spirit characteristic so now you'll need 2 corpse tokens to bring out a Necrotic Machine.

Now with a Rogue Necromancy they might be a nicer option, but once again that Armor is easily negated by just killing the Grave Spirit first (5 Dg in melee will do just that in 1 hit) who is going to be pretty close to the linked model.

[rancor709]

True enough but attacks directed at the grave spirit aren't being direct at the RN and again while its negateable it still serves its purpose. And I can always summon up the necrotic machine once my Grave Spirit RN is dead. Again personal preference plays in huge here. Its kinda of like chosing between a blonde and brunette both are fine choices.

[Omenbringer]

And I can always summon up the necrotic machine once my Grave Spirit RN is dead...both are fine choices.

Like I said the problem is the Grave Spirit wont drop a corpse counter because of the spirit characteristic, so you'll need to have 2 in order to bring the Necrotic Machine out (not always easy to get since several models either use Corpse counters themselves or have ways of getting rid of them to deny there use to others).

Additionally, it's not exactly easy for Molly to successfully cast Undead Construction (she needs a 8 :crows or higher, roughly 11% chance of success without a soulstone to assist) and has to be carrying the Corpse Counters (it is range C and doesn't allow her to use Corpse Counters that are lying about like most resurectionist masters).

Granted both are fine choices but for me the Necrotic Machine is the better option for a Molly crew (perhaps if including the Rogue Necromancy the Grave Spirit might eek it out because it will provide 3 Corpse Counters upon it's death, but what is the likely hood Miss Molly is going to have those in hand to discard for Undead Construction?).