Guardian's Stalwart

[Oshova]

(0) Stalwart: Friendly models within 2" of the Guardian gain Armour +2. This model suffers 1 Wd each time affected models suffer damage.

Now, I would read this as it being like an aura. So your models only have the effect while within 2". But as there is neither a Pulse or an Aura symbol, how are you supposed to play it? Because it creates 2 very different situations. Either you are activating the Guardian, and then sending off your models with Armour to go and kill stuff, or get objective. Or you are activating the Guardian, and then keeping models around that you want to keep alive to hold an objective, or block off a path etc.

So obviously, I just want to know what you all thought about this action, and how you think it should be played.

[Cadilon]

Good question! I've always played it like an aura. But now that you mention it, it might be the other way.

I'll be interested in hearing opinions as well.

[Fancy_Hat]

I do not believe it is an aura. As he is meant to be used with Hoffman, and Hoffman has the Dampening ability, which says no , , or may originate within 3" of Hoffman except during Hoffman's activation, it would seem to follow that it is not a pulse so that the Guardian may use Stalwart without being affected by dampening. Were it to be a pulse, then the Guardian would be unable to do Stalwart while within 3" of Hoffman, so the only way to have Stalwart would be for Hoffman to Assimilate and then use it.

[Oshova]

Ooh, I hadn't thought about that from Hoffman. Well that explains that it's worded the way it is then. So I just need some clarification as to what treat it as (without it actually being a pulse or an aura). To make it 100% clear you would have to change Stalwart to include one or the other, and change Hoffman so that he only excludes enemies from doing blasts etc.

[Fancy_Hat]

Yeah, so I play it as if it's an aura (without it actually being one, so it can be used wile next to Hoffman), but I'm not sure if it should be played that way, or simply he gives everyone within 2" when he uses Stalwart armor and then if they run away from him they retain the armor. Playing it as an aura seems simpler, so I play it that way rather tan having to mark and/or remember who does and does not have the armor+2.

[Oshova]

Playing for simplicity is usually better, and as primarily a Dreamer player the pain of remembering what has what effects at what times, and kept them through burying, is a right pain. =p

[Manlapas]

I'm kind of a new player, so I have to confess I don't understand the question. I read it as: Guardian activates, uses (0) Stalwart. From then on, when a model friendly to the Guardian takes damage, you check range to the Guardian. If it's 2", the damaged model gets +2 armor and the Guardian takes a wound.

What are the effects that would require this effect to be classified as an aura? It seems clear that the intent is not that the Guardian can defend pieces that are more than 2" away, so idea of them running off and keeping the Armor buff is ... pardon the expression, weak sauce.

[Cadilon]

What are the effects that would require this effect to be classified as an aura? It seems clear that the intent is not that the Guardian can defend pieces that are more than 2" away, so idea of them running off and keeping the Armor buff is ... pardon the expression, weak sauce.

But thats really the question, isn't it? Whether or not one considers it cheesy is in the eye of the beholder. I make no presumptions. I read the ability as written. I can see where it could be read that the armor still applies after a model moves further than two inches.

1. Guardian declares Stalwart.

2. Is model friendly?

3. Is model within 2"?

4. Gain armor +2

5. There is no step 5.

[Manlapas]

"I can see where it could be read" is kind of the key phrase there. You're acknowledging that you perceive the intent.

[Cadilon]

"I can see where it could be read" is kind of the key phrase there. You're acknowledging that you perceive the intent.

No. I am acknowledging that it could be read more than one way. Two people could perceive two different meanings from the same words.

As I said, I initially read it as an aura-like ability. So I perceived it one way. But if you don't read into it, and break down the meaning of the words as arranged, does it really?

It doesn't say "When friendly models are within 2" of the Guardian they gain armor +2". It says, "Friendly models within 2" of the Guardian gain armor +2".

To me this means they gain their armor and can keep it as they go on their merry way.

[Sholto]

Strictly speaking, the rulebook has this covered, since effects that do not declare an end point come to an end in the End Closing Phase. Auras specifically declare the effects they give end when a model moves out of the aura. Since Stalwart is not an aura, it seems that the +2 Armour effect is applied to all models within 2" of the Guardian when Stalwart is activated, and the +2 Armour then lasts until the End Closing Phase.

[Oshova]

So you're saying it is effectively a pulse, and the affect ends at the end of the turn? That is definitely the way it is starting to look like the rule works as written. But I still think that makes no sense. How is the Guardian protecting the Peacekeeper that has now run from the deployment zone grabbed the treasure, and then reactivated to go into cover?

[magicpockets]

So you're saying it is effectively a pulse, and the affect ends at the end of the turn? That is definitely the way it is starting to look like the rule works as written. But I still think that makes no sense. How is the Guardian protecting the Peacekeeper that has now run from the deployment zone grabbed the treasure, and then reactivated to go into cover?

Or the SS Miner that's just buried itself with armour (+3) huh?

I think how we played it is right, all models in 2" at the point the Guardian does Stalwart gain armour(+2) until the end closing phase, irrespective of where they eventually move.

[Oshova]

Or the SS Miner that's just buried itself with armour (+3) huh?

I think how we played it is right, all models in 2" at the point the Guardian does Stalwart gain armour(+2) until the end closing phase, irrespective of where they eventually move.

Yes, I would say we played the rule correctly as it's written. But I will just have to add it to my list of gripes about how things should work against how they work according to the rules. =p

[fishtank]

You know, it never occurred to me to play this as anything other than - to all intents and purposes- an Aura effect. This is what makes the most sense (it represents the Guardian sticking bits of himself in the way of shots and blows).

The fact that you can pick apart the language of the rule to interpret it otherwise actually saddens me.

Hopefully someone will clear this up.

[Oshova]

It's less picking apart the language, more seeing how people interpret things differently. And using the most literal reading of the rules makes for play with the least argument.

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from playing House Rules. But to play by the rules, you play literally. I agree that the sensible way to play would be to play it like an aura. But the rule as written says to play it like a pulse.

[magicpockets]

But I will just have to add it to my list of gripes...

Says the guy who plays Chompy and Collodi in the same crew

[Clousseau]

I tend to look at things from a logical point of view, and therefore the Guardian can logically only protect a model near it (within 2" in fact) and take a wound for the honour. That's how I'll continue to play it unless ruled otherwise.

P.S. don't confuse me with talk of auras and pulses

[Oshova]

Says the guy who plays Chompy and Collodi in the same crew

To be fair, you told me to play it in the 3rd game. =p

And you use Hamelin and Nix ; ]

Also, there is a difference between twisting the rules to suite your ends, and using models that are naturally more powerful than others. LCB and Collodi are just better against Levi than vice versa.

[magicpockets]

I tend to look at things from a logical point of view, and therefore the Guardian can logically only protect a model near it (within 2" in fact) and take a wound for the honour. That's how I'll continue to play it unless ruled otherwise.

P.S. don't confuse me with talk of auras and pulses

Well bear in mind if I play you I'll be playing it as written

[Twisted Metal]

I can see it both ways but am leaning towards it being an like an aura.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Twisted Metal

[Sholto]

Given that the Guardian is friendly to itself, and that a model is always within x" of itself, does Stalwart also affect the Guardian? I doubt it is meant to, but it certainly looks that way.