magicpockets Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Still waiting for some movement on the community recommended tweeks to bring him more in line with the power level of other Master's crews (remember that thread Magic?) Yes, and I had a big chat with Ratty last week as I chased his tournament Kirai crew around the board with a doss Hamelin crew and joke schemes. (He spent the entire game with JackDaw out of commission and Kirai running as fast as possible around the board away from me). We spent a lot of time discussing balances/fixes so it may be on their radar for the future or it may have been totally hypothetical. Fingers crossed through. I'm not even sure Hamelin needs fixing yet, as I like to reserve judgement until I have more experience with/against him. He really does, just not as far as some people say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAH Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Here's a suggestion on how to fix him: Step 1: Take his miniature and put it on a hard surface (concrete works well). Step 2: Get a hammer. Step 3: Smash Hamelin's miniature until it isn't recognizable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Here's a suggestion on how to fix him: Step 1: Take his miniature and put it on a hard surface (concrete works well). Step 2: Get a hammer. Step 3: Smash Hamelin's miniature until it isn't recognizable. Definately not this drastic! In the thread Magicpockets and I have been alluding to there were a lot of good suggestions to reduce his ridiculousness (without making him unplayable). I am really hoping Ratty will be able to influence the Wyrd Crew. I was rather unsuccessful during GenCon (I understand they are preoccupied with another pretty nasty combo, but at least that has a number of casting flips and resist opportunities built in ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hmmm, id say he could do with a tweak or 2 to make him less of a pain to play against, but I still stand by the notion that he's far from unbeatable. Experience against him is key. Many of my group at the LGS don't have nearly as big of an issue with him now that were all more experienced and they have had a lot of games to try stuff out against him. The problem is that despite being able to best him, he is still not very fun to play against even if you do manage to win. Though the same.could be said for other masters like Pandora, who also have a reputation for being a negative play experience, does a negative play experience mean that they should be fixed? Sure Hamelin could probably use a couple rules tweaks, but then again, so could all of.the book 2 masters, but is the.fact that its no fun to play against him give more weight to the claims of.him being broken? And before anyone says a sarcastic "yes", I think that the whole mindf&%k aspect about him and Pandora are part of the reason why they seem so strong, theyre just frustrating to play against and it demoralizes people into not.wanting to try, but its not a deciding factor for substantiating how broken they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 One has to be careful when tweaking models and abilities. There is often a fine line between broken and unplayable. However something that should be taken into account is negative play experience. Its something that should be looked at as negative play experiences harm the game. When playing against pandora and hamlin you indeed cease to play malifaux you instead are playing the pandora or the hamlin game. For some that is not a enjoyable game. For others it is great fun on both sides. I'm going to say I like the challenges these masters represent to play against. However for many that challenge is not enjoyable. But certain abilities I.e. The rat buzz saw of repeated rat catcher abuse can sour people. But we have to remember the fine line between broken and useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Basically how I feel, rancor. Sure, negative play experiences aren't the desired intent, but what makes them so negative is their innate design. Many of their core abilities/units/spells are what causes the negativity, but they're all designed to work in concert. You start changing abilities and you risk toppling that master into uselessness...like taking a leg off a tripod. Any tweaks would have to be incredibly minor, otherwise you'll have to overhaul his entire crew (and I say that in regards to Hamelin, stolen, catchers/rats and Nix, as they're designed with quite a bit of specific synergy in mind). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Jonas Albrecht actually said to me in a thread where I was raging about how stupid unfun Hamelin was, "If not Hamelin, then it'll be someone else." And it was at that point I realized that he was absolutely 100% correct and so I shut the hell up. The problem is, Hamelin really isn't broken or even that difficult to stomp. He's not any more powerful than the Dreamer or even Kirai. His problem lies in the fact that to win against him, you have to build versus him, not towards your objectives. Its the same thing with Pandora, and the reason a lot of newer players have a hell of a time dealing with her. The best thing anyone can do is let brand new people play Hamelin and let them pubstomp for a while, they'll feel bad ass and want to continue playing, but sooner or later they'll tire from being such a tyrant and switch over to a less difficult master to play against and things will continue as normal. It's unfortunate that Hamelin has become "That" master, because he's really a well developed character and has an interesting look and feel to his crew. His awesomeness is impeded by his ability to hard counter specific models in a game where Hard Counters are avoided as often as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 There are some things about Hamelin which do need fixing - At risk of necroing the old thread on this, personally I feel - 1. Bully shouldn't affect the things he can't hire (i.e. Gremlins, Constructs and Leader models) 2. Lure Malifaxu Citizen should be a spell. Easy to cast sure (which becomes harder with his -4Ca when he comes back, making it even harder for him to come back again), but not a 1 action. This unintentionally broke when they changed his respawn mechanic. 3. Rats shouldn't be able to kill each other to stall out activations indefinitely - sure you can say you shouldn't be a d*ck, but the d*cks shouldn't be able to abuse it 4. Impetuous should only give a on attack to counter Nix's emptiness aura (which gives them a ). The on damage is too much. 5. Reducing the range of Voracious Rats to 4" may have quite a positive impact on the game. 6. And maybe Nix's emptiness shouldn't affect soulstone flips I think if all of those changes were brought it it wouldn't shift him out of the top tier, but would stop him absolutely dominating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Interesting ideas, it just seems to me book 2 as a collective was such a radical advancement of power level and design philiosphy across the board. Malifaux will feel its effects for editions. You could make cases depending on the local meta that all book 2 masters are in need of a dramatic cuddle. You could also argue each is perfectly fine. Masters like pandora and hamlin who so radically change the game are tough for nonexperienced players to deal with. Even if your experienced these masters can prove problematic. What the solution is I don't know. I see a pattern of wyrd fixing unintentional infinate loops. So perhaps the rats will be tweaked to prevent abuse while retaining hamlins flavor and unique play style. The game shoud be accesssible and fun for the players both rat lovers and non rat lovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cain Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 3. Rats shouldn't be able to kill each other to stall out activations indefinitely - sure you can say you shouldn't be a d*ck, but the d*cks shouldn't be able to abuse it The legalized double mosquito respawn circle does the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 1. Bully shouldn't affect the things he can't hire (i.e. Gremlins, Constructs and Leader models). Totally okay with this. I think with the current range on Voracious Rats, you can cover most of the board with Hamelin and a Catcher. The legalized double mosquito respawn circle does the same thing. Don't take this away from me. It's all we have for the Austringers! =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 There are some things about Hamelin which do need fixing -... 1. Bully shouldn't affect the things he can't hire (i.e. Gremlins, Constructs and Leader models) I could get behind this, but I do think it should have a resist at the least. 2. Lure Malifaxu Citizen should be a spell. Easy to cast sure (which becomes harder with his -4Ca when he comes back, making it even harder for him to come back again), but not a 1 action. This unintentionally broke when they changed his respawn mechanic. Thankyou! Though I think he should also have something similar to Levi, where they have to be with in a certain range of him before death (to prevent hiding the Stolen in the back behind a big peice of LOS blocking Terrain). 3. Rats shouldn't be able to kill each other to stall out activations indefinitely - sure you can say you shouldn't be a d*ck, but the d*cks shouldn't be able to abuse it Definately agree with this, and for the record I agree that the infintie Skeeter cycle should go as well (wont miss it as the only time I've used it was against Hamelin). 5. Reducing the range of Voracious Rats to 4" may have quite a positive impact on the game. I like this one as well, it keeps the idea that the Rat Catcher is in control of the swarm. 4. Impetuous should only give a on attack to counter Nix's emptiness aura (which gives them a ). The on damage is too much. 6. And maybe Nix's emptiness shouldn't affect soulstone flips The only thing that really irritates me about Nix is the fact that he has Spirit, Magic Resistance 2, 6 Wds, several methods of forcing flips on attackers, and 2 easy methods of healing. That is a lot of protection/ survivability for a model. Interesting ideas, it just seems to me book 2 as a collective was such a radical advancement of power level and design philiosphy across the board. Malifaux will feel its effects for editions. I would agree that a lot of stuff in Book 2 is in need of tweeks to bring them in line with the original books power level. I definately think the infinte loops need to be removed. Masters like pandora and hamlin who so radically change the game are tough for nonexperienced players to deal with. Even if your experienced these masters can prove problematic. The game shoud be accesssible and fun... This is one of my main complaints, any game with balance issues usually goes the way of the dodo (afterall everyone wants a decent chance of winning). I have played with and against Hamelin for a long time and even now I would rather play something else then try to beat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 There are some things about Hamelin which do need fixing - At risk of necroing the old thread on this, personally I feel - 1. Bully shouldn't affect the things he can't hire (i.e. Gremlins, Constructs and Leader models) 2. Lure Malifaxu Citizen should be a spell. Easy to cast sure (which becomes harder with his -4Ca when he comes back, making it even harder for him to come back again), but not a 1 action. This unintentionally broke when they changed his respawn mechanic. 3. Rats shouldn't be able to kill each other to stall out activations indefinitely - sure you can say you shouldn't be a d*ck, but the d*cks shouldn't be able to abuse it 4. Impetuous should only give a on attack to counter Nix's emptiness aura (which gives them a ). The on damage is too much. 5. Reducing the range of Voracious Rats to 4" may have quite a positive impact on the game. 6. And maybe Nix's emptiness shouldn't affect soulstone flips I think if all of those changes were brought it it wouldn't shift him out of the top tier, but would stop him absolutely dominating it. 1. I think it should, only because for crew it doesn't innately effect, (As in, Models he has to spend AP on to make Insignificant) there are multiple models that can flat out destroy Hamelin anyway. Also, by making it not affect Gremlins, Constructs or Leaders, you make the entire point of Understand the Soulless pretty useless. Its integral, but imagine how frail Hamelin would be without Bully? 2. This I agree with, a CC of 12 of anything. Boom, he's just right. 3. Yeah, you're right. Especially with the stupidly annoying combo of 1.Swarm model, 2. 1 Rat hits model, next rat Kills that Rat, 3. Repeat. But what would you do? Give them like Rodent Love: This model cannot target friendly Malifaux Rat models. 4. This is a yes and a no with me. I think its too much for how easily rats are made, but I also think its important in some cases. They've still got a maximum base damage of 3, pretty well around the board. So I don't know if the to damage is really a problem. If this change happened I don't think it would affect anyone. 5. Now this I am behind 100%. 6" is too much with how quickly I (And other skilled hammies) can get a full blow swarm going. With an effective 18" line of Voracious Rats, once started, the swarm can't be stopped. 4" would reduce it to a maximum of one foot, which is only ever a third of the playing field. Any less and it would be broken, so I agree, 4" is perfect. 6. I never played it as a on a Soul Stone flip, but if this is how it is currently ruled, I agree. That would be OP and not fair. I also support this change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 1. I think it should, only because for crew it doesn't innately effect, (As in, Models he has to spend AP on to make Insignificant) there are multiple models that can flat out destroy Hamelin anyway. Also, by making it not affect Gremlins, Constructs or Leaders, you make the entire point of Understand the Soulless pretty useless. Its integral, but imagine how frail Hamelin would be without Bully? Get out of town with "frail" lol. 12 Wounds, easy 9 damage in melee, WP of 8, Ca of 7, non-living, easy respawn, 1AP to heal 2 wds, brilliant card mechanic... frail my ass 2. This I agree with, a CC of 12 of anything. Boom, he's just right. I think last time we talked about this we settled on a CC of 14? So its any 7 or higher normally or an 10 or higher once he's respawned. But what would you do? Give them like Rodent Love: This model cannot target friendly Malifaux Rat models. You'd need a better name (Part of the swarm, swarm instinct etc) but that would be perfect. 4. This is a yes and a no with me. I think its too much for how easily rats are made, but I also think its important in some cases. They've still got a maximum base damage of 3, pretty well around the board. So I don't know if the to damage is really a problem. If this change happened I don't think it would affect anyone. 6. I never played it as a on a Soul Stone flip, but if this is how it is currently ruled, I agree. That would be OP and not fair. I also support this change. Yeah, it says "on duel flips" which includes soul stone flips. Should just be the "starting duel flips" Question for Hamelin players - if they made ALL of the above changes would you worry he'd be underpowered in any way? I think he'd still be a very competitive master and a lot less of a pain in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Pfffft. Put Hamelin in front of a Gremlin gun line without Bully. Tell me how many pieces they shred him into before he activates. I think it was 13 because his Ca is 7 and dying reduces him by 4. But yeah, LMC needs to be a spell. None of these changes would break him, they might make him a bit less powerful but I don't think they'd do much to his viability. They'd bring him more in line with a lot of book one masters, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Pfffft. Put Hamelin in front of a Gremlin gun line without Bully. Tell me how many pieces they shred him into before he activates. I fail to see a problem with this. Ohhhh. A resist duel for Bully. I like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I fail to see a problem with this. Ohhhh. A resist duel for Bully. I like that. Yeah that was the solution we came up with. I think they should reduce it to a Wp->12 duel for Rat Catchers and Wp-> 13 for Hamelin. For Ht 1 and Insignificant models. Or really even just Insignificant. I've played a game with Hamelin using the rule of Bully: Insignificant models must make a Wp-> 13 duel or the action immediately fails. It works just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Pfffft. Put Hamelin in front of a Gremlin gun line without Bully. Tell me how many pieces they shred him into before he activates. I think it was 13 because his Ca is 7 and dying reduces him by 4. But yeah, LMC needs to be a spell. None of these changes would break him, they might make him a bit less powerful but I don't think they'd do much to his viability. They'd bring him more in line with a lot of book one masters, though. Yeah that was the solution we came up with. I think they should reduce it to a Wp->12 duel for Rat Catchers and Wp-> 13 for Hamelin. For Ht 1 and Insignificant models. Or really even just Insignificant. I've played a game with Hamelin using the rule of Bully: Insignificant models must make a Wp-> 13 duel or the action immediately fails. It works just fine. A resist duel is fine but I honestly don't think it is needed. Tell me how many masters in your gun line example would fair better than Hamelin? Plus making Bully follow his hiring restrictions is just "nice" if you know what I mean, it makes sens. Also, making it a WP->13 (or whatever) just makes it yet another version of harmless/pitiful which isn't needed. ANd of course, it still gives understand the soulless some teeth as it still cuddles models rather than just subjecting them to wp tests instead. Having siad that, if Wyrd made the changes and it did become a WP duel it would be better than where it is now - especially for Gremlin players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Just consider that changing "Bully" will also effect Hamelin The Rat Catcher, as he also has this ability. Not a major point, but worth considering. As you were..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegantir Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 There are some things about Hamelin which do need fixing - At risk of necroing the old thread on this, personally I feel - 1. Bully shouldn't affect the things he can't hire (i.e. Gremlins, Constructs and Leader models) 2. Lure Malifaxu Citizen should be a spell. Easy to cast sure (which becomes harder with his -4Ca when he comes back, making it even harder for him to come back again), but not a 1 action. This unintentionally broke when they changed his respawn mechanic. 3. Rats shouldn't be able to kill each other to stall out activations indefinitely - sure you can say you shouldn't be a d*ck, but the d*cks shouldn't be able to abuse it 4. Impetuous should only give a on attack to counter Nix's emptiness aura (which gives them a ). The on damage is too much. 5. Reducing the range of Voracious Rats to 4" may have quite a positive impact on the game. 6. And maybe Nix's emptiness shouldn't affect soulstone flips I think if all of those changes were brought it it wouldn't shift him out of the top tier, but would stop him absolutely dominating it. I want to start by saying that these changes would reduce Hamelin to a fun game caster, and no longer a tourney caster. If these changes are implemented, I cannot see using Hamelin over Levi or the Viks. 1. The problem here is that because of Hamelin's Voracious Rats, he needs to be in the thick of things. If you allow leaders to hit him, he is going to get destroyed by quite a few masters. He may not be the weakest master, but the masters that are weaker than him can typically stay back from the front lines. 2. I could see a CC 12 or 13 for this. This change would not break him. 3. This is a flaw of the system, not of Hamelin. Other models can do this as well, so a global fix should be implemented, not a local fix. 4. Why? Are Rats really doing that much more damage because of the on DMG? I don't see it. 5. No! This is the one thing, especially with suggestion 1 that would break him. As it is I lose rats from them being outside of 6". Against an average opponent, this change would not do much, but against a good opponent, who knows how to cut apart Voracious Rats when it is 6", this change would neuter Hamelin. 6. I can agree with that, if that is even true. Again, this is more of a global issue than a local issue, and a global change to use soulstone may be better. So, two of your six suggestions are global problems, not problems of Hamelin himself. Another one of the suggestions would not have that much of an effect, and are not making Hamelin that much stronger at all. One change I can agree with. Finally, two of the suggested changes would break him in the opposite direction. If you want the a suggestion that I think would bring him down one notch, but not enough to cripple him, and it would even speed the game up slightly, is to make The Void draw from the top of the deck only. I have seen people not cheat, when they should have, only because of a 12 or 13 on the top of the discard. I have also seen people think about cheating for a long time, because of the card on the top of the discard pile, slowing the game down. Another change that I could see, but do not really like that much, is to limit Nihilism to a specific range, like 12" or 14". This would prevent models from getting objectives on the other side of the board from your main force. I had a game last night where my Canine Remains were destroying evidence about 18+" from Hamelin. If my opponent sends over models to tie up the dogs (which he did), they are less things that Hamelin needs to worry about, and the dogs are no slouches when it comes to gang raping something (which they did). If they had to stay within 12" or 14" of Hamelin, to be able to destroy the evidence, it would have been a different game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 many thoughtful comments I really like the change to nihilism. That $$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$es me off when every insignificant model is a threat in schemes. Also, forcing them to draw from the top is huge as well. I get annoyed when Hammy players deliberately leave a high card on the top of their discard pile, effectively making everything uncheatable late in a turn. The problem with Hammy is more that playing him is so drull, not that he is out and out OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 1. The problem here is that because of Hamelin's Voracious Rats, he needs to be in the thick of things. If you allow leaders to hit him, he is going to get destroyed by quite a few masters. He may not be the weakest master, but the masters that are weaker than him can typically stay back from the front lines. I disagree with you, I run Hamelin on his own in melee in every game and there's plenty of people on here who will testify he is neither weak nor a glass cannon. In fact, I very rarely make things insignificant now just to avoid them hitting Hamelin. I think this is more a case of you play him in a certain way so don't know how good he still is in another way - try it out 3. This is a flaw of the system, not of Hamelin. Other models can do this as well, so a global fix should be implemented, not a local fix. AFAIK no other models can do this at all. Only rats can have one rat kill another and the dead rat spawn a new rat which in the next activation kills the first rat... 4. Why? Are Rats really doing that much more damage because of the on DMG? I don't see it. First an extra wound is a lot when you have multiple rats hitting you, then you compound it with Nix who can boost severe damage. 5. No! This is the one thing, especially with suggestion 1 that would break him. As it is I lose rats from them being outside of 6". Against an average opponent, this change would not do much, but against a good opponent, who knows how to cut apart Voracious Rats when it is 6", this change would neuter Hamelin. It would not "break" him at all, it would just mean you had to learn to play in a more controlled way with a less far reaching ability. The point of this is we're trying to weaken him and complaining every time something means you'll have to play him differently to how you play him now isn't going to get us anywhere. 6. I can agree with that, if that is even true. Again, this is more of a global issue than a local issue, and a global change to use soulstone may be better. As I explain above somewhere, Emptiness affects "all duel flips", not just starting flips (or attack flips, defence flips, resist flips etc...) which is usually used in ability descriptions. It's clear on Nix's card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 What you have to remember with Voracious Rats is that it's not just Hamelin, but at least one Rat Catcher too. You can cover a whole swarm with that, making it very hard to make a dent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 A resist duel is fine but I honestly don't think it is needed. Tell me how many masters in your gun line example would fair better than Hamelin? Plus making Bully follow his hiring restrictions is just "nice" if you know what I mean, it makes sens. Also, making it a WP->13 (or whatever) just makes it yet another version of harmless/pitiful which isn't needed. ANd of course, it still gives understand the soulless some teeth as it still cuddles models rather than just subjecting them to wp tests instead. Having siad that, if Wyrd made the changes and it did become a WP duel it would be better than where it is now - especially for Gremlin players. Seamus did okiedokie, Rasputina did fine until the Skeeters started going crazy. Its survivable with masters who have survivability. - - - - Well I can see your reasoning, but I also think its fair to punish players who let Hamelin get all willy-nilly with Insignificant. I've actually found the challenge of avoiding Insignificant versus Hamelin to be a lot of fun, really. I kinda just defend Bully because I apply the same basic idea to Pandora or the Dreamer, should we remove her Wp duel or his "HAHAHAHAHAHA YOU CAN'T HIT ME!" because it drives people crazy? I suppose the fact that he can hire any Ht 1 or Insignificant model should factor into that idea, but still. I do honestly think removing restrictions from Bully is the right way to go. Something needs to be done because absolutely excluding combat models from play (essentially) is both anti-fun and gamebreaking. So that's a nutshell of why I support the Resist Duel rather than just letting certain models through his barrier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 I would agree with some of that. Namely, Emptiness not effecting Ss flips. Wouldn't mind bully not effecting gremlins. Lure citizen being an easy cast spell. I think Impetuous was intended to be used with nix so that you could still get straight flips with them, but I agree that it doesn't need to be for dg flips. However, I don't think Voracious rats needs its range reduced. Those 3 changeable would at least make him more.manageable, while not.effecting his bottom line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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