Manifesting the Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter

[Yosh]

Hi

i've some questions in my mind regarding the manifestation of the Viktorias:

In theory, if i got one requirement fulfilled on turn 1, i can manifest the Viktorias' avatar on 2nd turn via an (All) Action.

What happens if I:

- Activate both of the Viktorias via Companion

- Take the Manifest Action with Viktoria 1

- Replace Viktoria 2 with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter

Does she have an activation immediately or later in this turn (because all effects canceled on her when she manifests) or just next turn (so i can choose the avatar's placement) ?

The really interesting part is replacing a non activated, but simultaneously activated model. Is this thing discussed yet?

Yosh

[Cadfan]

Companion goes like this:

1. Nominate all models in the Companion chain.

2. All models activate.

3. Choose one model to resolve all AP with first.

4. Choose another model in the Companion chain to resolve all AP with.

5. Repeat Step 4 until all models in the Companion chain have spent their AP.

This is how it works. It matters for things like the change to the Bury mechanics and for things like Guild Hounds, which get a free Walk if they activate near another Guild Hound. By Companioning them, they both get the free Walk even though one of them will move away before the other starts spending AP.

When does a companion-ed model's activation end? When the individual model runs out of AP, or when the companion group collectively finishes?

[Lucidicide]

Nope. LCB will interrupt the companion chain. There was a ruling a while back on it.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?24116-Chompy-Dreamer-quot-Immediate-quot-activation-and-turn-timing&p=297199&viewfull=1#post297199

Found it via a link from you in a different post! Cool.

Silly how it works, but whatever.

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------

When does a companion-ed model's activation end? When the individual model runs out of AP, or when the companion group collectively finishes?

When it runs out of AP, I believe.

[Cunning]

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?24116-Chompy-Dreamer-quot-Immediate-quot-activation-and-turn-timing&p=297199&viewfull=1#post297199

Found it via a link from you in a different post! Cool.

Silly how it works, but whatever.

Yeah I know. Hence the grey area around when models in a companion chain actually start their activation and why I would say that if the replaced Vik hadn't taken any actions yet that Bloodlust would take effect.

[TimeLapse]

Yeah I know. Hence the grey area around when models in a companion chain actually start their activation and why I would say that if the replaced Vik hadn't taken any actions yet that Bloodlust would take effect.

Yeah I agree the wording on the card is this,

"When this mosel activates, its first action must me a melee..." so it activtaed and has unspent ap so I would say you would have to complete this requirment.

[nerdelemental]

Can we all just agree that this is Keltheos' fault? I'm sure he's to blame.

[Keltheos]

Yeah, I knew I should have turned down your ideas for her. ;P

[nerdelemental]

Don't blame me! I hardly remember working on Viktorias. I'm sure they were yours.

:ninja:

[Shadai]

Alright, let me try to defend my position with the rules to back it up.

First of all, exhibit A (p38):

Replace

Some placement effects require a model (or models) to replace one another. When a model(s) Replaces another, place that model in base contact with the model it is replacing, then removed the replaced model from play. There must be room to fit. Any effects on the model(s) being replaced are applied to all Replacing models, Including Wounds suffered, which must be divided as evenly as possible between them.

The Replacing model(s) continues the activation using any general AP the replaced model(s) had remaining. If there are not enough general AP to divide between the Replacing models, their controller divides them as evenly as possible and decides which model receives any remainder. The Replacing model(s) can use their specific AP during this activation if any of the replaced models has not already used the same talent or spell. When multiple models replace a single model, they complete their activations using the simultaneous activation rules.

I've bolded the important parts, be sure to fully understand them before moving on to Exhibit B (p32):

If a model performs an (All) Action, it is the only action that model my take during its activation, including all (0) Actions. A model cannot take an (All) and a (0) Action during a single activation. Additional Actions generated from Triggers may be used as normal when a model performs an (All) action.

Again, the important parts are bold.

So what does this mean? Well it means that when you replace two models with one, all of the effects transfer with it. This has been ruled the case on multiple occasions. Thus, (using the Coryphee -> Duet as an example) if one of the Coryphee is affected by something, when the combine, the Duet becomes affected by it as well. So for example, if you have linked your mannequin to one of the Coryphee, the Duet retains the link even if the link was on the Coryphee you buried. Furthermore, it works the same if one of your Coryphee was somehow affected with slow. When you combine them, the Duet gets slow, regardless of which Coryphee was combining or was buried.

So what does that mean with the Viks and the Avatar? Well, quite simply, to manifest on turn 2 requires an (All) action. And while the (badly worded, imho) card does say to choose, you are still combining an unused Vik and a Vik that used an (All) action. Which the Avatar, following the Replace rules gains the remaining AP of all the replaced models. In this case, because the one you chose hasn't activated yet, it contributes 0 and the other has done an (All) action. Which means, by the Replace rules, the Avatar has performed an (All) action as well. This is because the Avatar continues the activation with what AP you have left.

BUT WAIT, I can see you already flexing your fingers to type.

But I'm not choosing the Vik that did the (All) action. I'm choosing the other one! The card says the other one gets discarded!

It does indeed. Well done, rules lawyer. However, the Replace rules are quite clear that the replaced model suffers the same effects that are currently affecting ALL of the replaced models, in this case, both. Additionally, that model continues its activation using any available AP of ALL models, which it has none, since it used an (All) action.

The other Vik contributes 0 AP?? But I'm companioning, and they both activate simultaneously!

Indeed you are. And if you actually read the rules for Simultaneous activations (its page 31, if you are curious) you'll note that while they "activate" at the same time, they don't actually "activate" until you nominate the model from the group, complete its entire activation before moving to the next. You don't get to companion the Viks and have 4 AP to spend between the two. You nominate one, use 2 General AP and melee master if needed, then nominate the second, which gets 2 AP and melee master. Just by saying "I'm using companion on both Viks" does not suddenly and magically grant you 4 AP to spend however you wish. You don't get the model's 2 AP until you declare the previous model in the chain is done, and now it's this models turn.

So in the case of pikachu and "I choose the un-activated Vik" to replace, well, unactivated Vik provides a whopping 0 AP at the moment, even if she wasn't hampered by the other Vik using the (All) action. So no, the Avatar suddenly does not get 6 AP. This holds true even if you wait longer in the manifest clock so you avoid the (All) penalty.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Shadai

[RebeccaJo]

So no, the Avatar suddenly does not get 6 AP.

Where did you get 6 AP?

[Yosh]

So, this thing with the 'you can chose the Vik you want to replace' is only good for the placement of the Avatar - you can decide where to put her, which one of the Viks are going to be replaced.

That's a good thing either, because you don't have to sacrifice a Vik's full activation for positioning: you can activate the first, unleash hell as usual, then activate the second one and you can still replace the avatar with the first one.

Yosh

[Issalbotproto]

Shadai I don't think you quite understand what the vik's avatar is worded,

It says "replace one Viktoria with Viktoria, avatar of slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game."

while Coryphees dance together says "Sacrifice this model and one other friendly coryphee within 2". replace this model with one coryphee duet before it is removed from play."

Now the very distinct thing about the wording on the Avatar is that you may chose to replace the model that has not yet activated (the viki that did not use the (all) action), and in doing so that model will, when it activates, have its 2 general AP as well as its (+2) melee master AP because that model was replaced through the action of another model

on the other side since the coryphee that used dance together had to use 1 of its (0) actions to dance together it will only have 2 of its 3 (0) actions it would have had if it started its turn as the Duet.

[Shadai]

Where did you get 6 AP?

Just in case someone thought they got 2 AP from the "unused" Vik, 2 AP from the Avatar activating, and 2 AP for melee expert. I suppose I should edit that to say 4-6, but I think you get the point.

So, this thing with the 'you can chose the Vik you want to replace' is only good for the placement of the Avatar - you can decide where to put her, which one of the Viks are going to be replaced.

That's a good thing either, because you don't have to sacrifice a Vik's full activation for positioning: you can activate the first, unleash hell as usual, then activate the second one and you can still replace the avatar with the first one.

Yosh

That is correct. And, as I point out, I'm pretty sure that is the intent of the designers. You can never tell which one is the real Vik. It makes it nice but not completely and totally overpowered.

Shadai I don't think you quite understand what the vik's avatar is worded,

It says "replace one Viktoria with Viktoria, avatar of slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game."

while Coryphees dance together says "Sacrifice this model and one other friendly coryphee within 2". replace this model with one coryphee duet before it is removed from play."

Now the very distinct thing about the wording on the Avatar is that you may chose to replace the model that has not yet activated (the viki that did not use the (all) action), and in doing so that model will, when it activates, have its 2 general AP as well as its (+2) melee master AP because that model was replaced through the action of another model

on the other side since the coryphee that used dance together had to use 1 of its (0) actions to dance together it will only have 2 of its 3 (0) actions it would have had if it started its turn as the Duet.

But I do understand how its worded. Its been pointed out to me several times in this thread alone. What you are missing is that regardless of which one you "choose" to replace, you are replacing both models by the Replace rule. And as such, you continue the activation with what actions you have left with both models. Since the unused Vik hasn't technically acted in the chain, it provides 0 AP, and since the "active" Vik used an (All) action, that means the Avatar has used an (All) action. And by definition, that means the Avatar cannot do any other actions until the next turn.

This has been the case forever and a day. Even in the Coryphee example, people wanted to think, well if I companion both Coryphee and use the first one to merge into the other, then I get a full round of actions because the other Coryphee hasn't gone yet. And that answer has been a consistent no.

You are trying to choose which model you replace because you think the card tells you to. In reality, you are choosing where to place the Avatar, but you are still replacing both models per the Replace rule. Its like trying to combine one Coryphee into another one with slow. You want to think, "but the second one is buried!!! that slow doesn't transfer!!" but alas, it does, and has ruled as such multiple times. You don't get to choose. When you Replace, you take all the AP, Wounds and Effects on all of the models you're replacing and apply them to the Avatar. I'm sorry you don't like the rule. But if you want to change it, believe me, as a Colette player, I would LOVE to combine to the Duet and get a full round of actions on first turn.

Yosh has it 100% right. It seems they worded it that way for placement, so you didn't have to do some funky-ass things just to get that Avatar in position. Granted it could have been better worded, but then again I don't think Wyrd was really looking at the literal wording and what it meant.

[WindlordRyu]

But I do understand how its worded. Its been pointed out to me several times in this thread alone. What you are missing is that regardless of which one you "choose" to replace, you are replacing both models by the Replace rule.

It clearly says replace one, which means replace one of them, not both. Regardless of how the designers intended it to work. Sometimes the rules don't work the way they're intended to do and you end up with an overpowered model, just look at Dreamer/LCB.

[RebeccaJo]

The Viks typically out-activated any other master because there are two of them verses the one master. They companion, kill stuff, then get out of the way. That's what they do. By not allowing the unused Vik to have her AP after she manifests is drastically changing the basic way they are designed to play since Book One. I don't see what the fuss is about the avatar to get an activation first. Doesn't make sense to me. Nicodem's avatar can make spawn mindless zombies without lifting a finger. McMourning's avatar can mess with your opponents attack and defense flips and he turns into two things! So what if the Viks can get the attack?!? The other avatars have their own dirty tricks that makes me unhappy to play against sometimes. This is the Viks dirty trick. Not to mention it only happens when she manifests, and it requires the player to be incredibly diligent on their activation order. If they do it in reverse (use the first Vik with her 2 AP, melee master and 0; then use the other Vik to do the (ALL) action to manifest leaving them without an AP) then the avatar would just sit there without getting the AP. The sad part about them is the part where they have to make a melee strike or a charge ending in an attack or they are done.

I don't know why everyone is getting so hostile. The card says it, so until Wyrd changes it, that seems to be the consensus between players on how it should be played.

[Cunning]

But I do understand how its worded. Its been pointed out to me several times in this thread alone. What you are missing is that regardless of which one you "choose" to replace, you are replacing both models by the Replace rule.

No, you aren't. You're replacing the unactivated Vik and removing the activate Vik from play. That's what the card says.

I can see the argument that says it can't activate straight away. As I've pointed out it's a bit of a grey area with regards to companion but the rules specifically state you replace one of the Viks and remove the other. The replace rule does not apply to the removed Vik.

You keep mentioning rules as intended but that's not for you or me or anyone apart from the designers to comment on. You can't claim to know what they intended only what you believe they intended which is not the same thing. We can only work from rules as written.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------

I don't know why everyone is getting so hostile. The card says it, so until Wyrd changes it, that seems to be the consensus between players on how it should be played.

This. Very much this.

[RebeccaJo]

It says "replace one Viktoria with Viktoria, avatar of slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game."

while Coryphees dance together says "Sacrifice this model and one other friendly coryphee within 2". replace this model with one coryphee duet before it is removed from play."

I bolded the important parts.

[Shadai]

Let me help.

Honestly. The "I want to prove this is the most overpowered Avatar AND justify its overpoweredness" is just insane. You are right CunningStunt. And I actually like you. The card does say it. But the card is also subject to the Replace rules. I don't care how you think you are getting around it. It is still subject to the Replace rules.

Here, let me help:

I bolded the important parts.

It says "replace one Viktoria with Viktoria, avatar of slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game."

while Coryphees dance together says "Sacrifice this model and one other friendly coryphee within 2". replace this model with one coryphee duet before it is removed from play."

You are soooo close. Here, allow me to fix it.

It says "replace one Viktoria with Viktoria, avatar of slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game."

And

while Coryphees dance together says "Sacrifice this model and one other friendly coryphee within 2". replace this model with one coryphee duet before it is removed from play."

See it yet?

It's the same thing. The exact same thing. Replace one, get rid of the other. It doesn't matter how it has been gotten rid of, just that its gone.

HOWEVER

Both models are still affected by the replace rule, always have been, always will be. When you combine the Coryphees, you don't get the unspent actions of the Coryphee that hasn't acted. You don't get "another" go. You transfer any effects from both onto the Duet. This has always been how this has been rule, this will continue to be how it is ruled. Again, I'm sorry you don't like the rule. But the Replace rule has been in the rulebook the entire time.

I'll put it another way.

When you combine the Coryphees, you are going from two models to one right? Subject by replace? Then they are affected by the Replace rules. We all know this.

Now, you have two Viks, right? You are going from.... wait for it.... two models... to one.... right? Subject to replace? Then they too are affected by the Replace rules. Why should it be any different?

[WindlordRyu]

No there's a pretty huge difference between the Coryphee and the Viktorias.

"Replace one Viktoria..."

"Replace this model with one Coryphee..."

Only one of the Coryphees is replaced, the other is sacrificed. The reason they don't cause this problem is that the Coryphee specifies this model, the one that is currently active and is actually using it's AP to Dance Together.

[Shadai]

No there's a pretty huge difference between the Coryphee and the Viktorias.

"Replace one Viktoria..."

"Replace this model with one Coryphee..."

Only one of the Coryphees is replaced, the other is sacrificed. The reason they don't cause this problem is that the Coryphee specifies this model, the one that is currently active and is actually using it's AP to Dance Together.

Again. Please go read the Replace rules. You aren't just replacing one model. You are replacing both. Regardless of how its worded on the card, you are still replacing 2 models with 1. This is how this had been ruled in the past. For consistency, it has to continue to be ruled in this fashion.

I can say you are replacing both because A) the replace rules say so, Effects transfer as well as AP, and C) even though the wording is slightly different, the effect is the same... you are moving from 2 models to 1.

[WindlordRyu]

If you're going to claim it's been rules that way when pretty much everyone disagrees with you, link the ruling. Which models are replaced is not defined by the replace rules in the rules manual, but by the cards telling you to replace which models by what.

True you are moving from two models to one, but only one model is actually replaced. "This" is singular form, which means one. And one is one, not in any way shape or form two.

[RebeccaJo]

Again. Please go read the Replace rules. You aren't just replacing one model. You are replacing both. Regardless of how its worded on the card, you are still replacing 2 models with 1. This is how this had been ruled in the past. For consistency, it has to continue to be ruled in this fashion.

I can say you are replacing both because A) the replace rules say so, Effects transfer as well as AP, and C) even though the wording is slightly different, the effect is the same... you are moving from 2 models to 1.

I agree that you are moving from two models to one... but if you were replacing both it would more likely say replace BOTH Vikrotias...

NOT

replace ONE Viktoria

EDIT: If you have the previous rulings, do us all a favor and post links. I hate arguing, I really do... but it's so bluntly obvious... I don't understand how you are getting that they are BOTH replaced when the card specifically states ONE.

Honestly, I'm just curious why you are so passionate about this...

Edited April 22, 2012 by RebeccaJo

[Cadfan]

Shadai, I'm looking at the Replace rules, and I'm not seeing what you think is there.

From what I see, on the Coryphee, you do the following:

1. Sacrifice both Coryphee

2. But before removing the active Coryphee from the table, replace it with the Coryphee duet.

So only one model is being replaced. The other is being sacrificed. Nothing in the replace rules changes that (if so, what would it be? I'm looking at it right now).

So if the active Coryphee had 2 actions before it spent 1 on Dance Together, the Coryphee Duet would have 2 actions (1 carried over, 1 from Fast). If this is not the way the Coryphee work, then it must be super secret forum "clarification" that really means "errata." Because as written, that's what happens. The part where the Coryphee Duet is subject to effects on both Coryphee isn't part of the Replace rules, its part of the Dance Together rules, which add additional effects.

So... I can't see why the Victorias wouldn't operate the same way.

[Shadai]

Honestly, I'm just curious why you are so passionate about this...

You know what, you're right. I don't care anymore.

Every other Avatar gets to do exactly nothing on turn 2 when they manifest, yet you all are arguing aViks gets a full round of actions. That's fine. Play against it a few times and then come back and tell me how "fair" that game was.

But I don't have a horse in this race, I don't play aViks (yet, but seeing how OP they are I'm going to start now) and I haven't played against them. So you're correct. I don't care anymore. Forget I said anything. I'm clearly wrong cause you all are so incredibly right.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

[Bruglyother]

Alright folks, lets tone this back down again. At this point, both sides have had their say. Nothing new is being added to the conversation. The rules Marshals are obviously aware as a few of them have commented. Give them time to work through it and we will see what they have to say when they make their decisions. There is no reason for getting antagonistic over a game.

[Golden]

Bruggs, you missed the point. Their not antagonistic over a game. They're antagonistic over a forum thread, which is proven to be the #1 thing that will generate conflict on the internet. Period.

But I think Shadai is correct.