Manifesting the Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter

[Yosh]

Hi

i've some questions in my mind regarding the manifestation of the Viktorias:

In theory, if i got one requirement fulfilled on turn 1, i can manifest the Viktorias' avatar on 2nd turn via an (All) Action.

What happens if I:

- Activate both of the Viktorias via Companion

- Take the Manifest Action with Viktoria 1

- Replace Viktoria 2 with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter

Does she have an activation immediately or later in this turn (because all effects canceled on her when she manifests) or just next turn (so i can choose the avatar's placement) ?

The really interesting part is replacing a non activated, but simultaneously activated model. Is this thing discussed yet?

Yosh

[Adran]

There was a discussion of this earlier, but I don't think there was an official answer.

I personally am of the opinion that the Avatar of slaughter will continue the current activation, so if it was done with an all action, its over, regardless of which Viktoria you replace and the Avatar is finished for the turn.

[TimeLapse]

There was a discussion of this earlier, but I don't think there was an official answer.

I personally am of the opinion that the Avatar of slaughter will continue the current activation, so if it was done with an all action, its over, regardless of which Viktoria you replace and the Avatar is finished for the turn.

Well the issue is that the Avatar says finish the replaced models activation, so the model that took the all action is not the replaced model at all, so the replaced model has all its activations still.

The exact wording in the book is as follows

"...Replace one Vik with Vik Avatar of... Remove the other Victoria form play"

So replace the Vik that has used no AP this turn yet.

The last bit says this

"... Then Continue Vik avatars activation as normal for the REPLACED MODEL." So the replaced model has not spent any ap points yet. Since it activates at the same time via companion it has already activated with full AP points left so you should (as read) act as if you Automatic manifested.

So it makes sense as written that you get the APs of the non-used Vik. If they meant the viks to be replaced and have no AP if you have it is to say that you need to replace the model that manifested in the first place.

This seems really powerful when you look at it on paper but the Vik player is losing 2 models for one, 6 actions for 4 so being able to use it the turn you get it is not that powerful since you are replacing 2 models with a single model.

Edited April 18, 2012 by TimeLapse

[Issalbotproto]

A model that can end up in combat with just about anyone it wants to >.>

[TimeLapse]

Hey markus was giving them a odd look they had to go over and say hello... with a massive sword.

[Issalbotproto]

It hurt sooo bad T_T

[Bigmike]

could we get a marshal on this one please? I am pro it working like this but i need an official ruling to avoid any nay saying lol or just to be told it isn't meant to work like this.

[Shadai]

I'm pretty sure it works like the Coryphee combining to form Voltron.

So, the activation continues with the replaced model.

Or in other words, not it the way OP seems to hope it works.

In the OP's example:

First turn, satisfy the first requirement.

Second turn, companion both Viks, use the first vik as the all action to manifest

End your turn with them cause you're done.

Technically you would get the remaining actions if any of the replaced model, but since you are using an (all) action, you have no remaining actions.

So what can you do, and how does it really work (assuming it works like the Duet).

It's a standard replace, so what you can do is companion both viks and use the first vik to do whatever with her 2 AP and melee expert, then activate the second vik to perform the (all) action.

What you seem to think you can do is "choose" which model it replaces, which you don't get to do. When you replace, you replace the "active" model, or in this case, the model that did the manifest. You can't nominate the second vik as the one you're replacing so you get all of her unused AP.

From the rulebook, when you're replacing you only get the AP of the active model that is being replaced, not any other model. So, like in the case of the Duet, if you spend an action on the first Coryphee to form Voltron, you don't get the AP of the Coryphee that hasn't activated yet. This is regardless of how you activated them (or even if you companion the two of them with a Mannequin). I see no reason why the Viks avatar would work any differently.

[Yosh]

Hi again,

these are the differencies:

Coryphée's Dance Together: Sacrifice this model, and one other Coryphée within 2". Replace this model with one Coryphée Duet in base contact with it before it is removed.

Viktorias Manifest:

Replace one Viktoria with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria From the game.

...

Then continoue Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter's activation as normal for a Replaced model.

Difference: when the Coryphée takes the Dance Together action it has to be the one who gets Replaced (with a big 'R'). When a Viktoria takes it, you can chose which one you want to Replace.

If you wanna make it work like the Coryphée then it should sound like this:

Replace the Viktoria which took the manifest action with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria From the game.

...

Then continoue Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter's activation as normal for a Replaced model.

It would solve this problem and no stupid questions would be taken.

Yosh

[TimeLapse]

From the rulebook, when you're replacing you only get the AP of the active model that is being replaced, not any other model. So, like in the case of the Duet, if you spend an action on the first Coryphee to form Voltron, you don't get the AP of the Coryphee that hasn't activated yet. This is regardless of how you activated them (or even if you companion the two of them with a Mannequin). I see no reason why the Viks avatar would work any differently.

From the Rulebook

Page 38

"The replacing model(s) continues the activation useing ang General AP the replaced model(s) had remaining."

From Viktorias Avatar od slaughter card 1

"Replace one Viktoria with Viktorias Avatar of slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game..."

"Replace the Viktorias stat cards for the remainder of the Encoounter. Then continue the Viktorias Avatar of slaughter activation as normal using the Replaced model rules."

Step one Activate both viktorias via Companion.

Step two Notice that both Viktorias are now Activated SIULTANEOUSLY. Also notice that being activated is not an effect.

Step three pick a Viktoria to preform her actions first, she Manifests into Viktorias Avatar of slaughter using the all action.

Step four follow the Manifest steps on the Viktorias Avatar of slaughter card on,

1 remove totems. check

2 Remove effects. check

3 Replace one Vik. Any one okay i replace the one that has not spent any AP this turn.

4 Remove the other Vik from the game. So the other now has nothing to do with the AP of the

manifesting Viktoria since it does not count as being a replaced models at all, but instead a

removed from play model.

5. Apply wounds

6. Make a healing flip with a soulstone if wanted.

7. Replace cards

8. Continue Viktorias Avatar of slaughter as normal for a replaced model

Now lets look what we have left for Viktorias Avatar of Slaughter, well it only replaced one model and removed another from play. the replaced Viktoria model has activated and has not used any of its AP yet. So that should mean RAW that Viktorias Avatar of Slaughter now continue there activation will full AP points given to them from the only model they replaced that has used NONE of its AP points.

The 2 main things to remember in this is only one Viktoria is replaced not both and you get to pick which one is replaced and which one is removed.

Yosh has it right in my reading of the rule but I wanted to show the steps in detail so that we are all on the same page.

What you seem to think you can do is "choose" which model it replaces, which you don't get to do. When you replace, you replace the "active" model, or in this case, the model that did the manifest. You can't nominate the second vik as the one you're replacing so you get all of her unused AP.

Umm you do, well via Companion both models are active at the same time you just complete one model activation at a time. Also where is the rule that states you must replace the active model i have the rule book here and I am reading the replacement rules page 38, no where does it say that it has to be the active model it replaces.

Both the rules and the Viktoria avatar card say nothing about the active model and the Viktoria card says replace a Victoria and Remove from play the one you dont replace. it does not say active at all.

Edited April 19, 2012 by TimeLapse

[Shadai]

Well, no need to get snotty.

My apologies for not having the book open in front of me. I bow to your rulebook-fu.

But you cannot seriously think that your interpretation is the one they intended. Wyrd currently and in the past have used some interesting word selections, we all get worked up about it here on the forums "BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT DOESN'T DO WHAT IT SAYS????" whambulance whambulance, rinse repeat.

So let me get this straight. Because she doesn't specifically SAY replace the acting Vik (which I'm pretty sure that's what they intended), you get to activate one, replace the other one with the Avatar, then IMMEDIATELY spring 4 actions of Avatar Vik all over your opponents face.

Yeah, that's fair.

Of course, all the other avatars can do the same... oh wait, THEY CAN'T. Not on turn 2 with an (all) action.

But hey, replacing 2 models with 1 right. Clearly the literal interpretation is correct.

[Cadfan]

Does companion actually activate every companioned model simultaneously, rather than activating them in a chain? The quote from the rulebook:

"Before activating a model with Companion, nominate any number of the referenced model(s) or model(s) with the corresponding Characteristic within 6" of one another. These models activate simultaneously. Choose one of the nominated models to activate first, and complete its entire activation. Then the Controller chooses and activates another nominated model. Continue activating the nominated models until all nominated models have completed their activations."

I know it says "These models activate simultaneously."

It then goes on to directly contradict that with "Choose one of the nominated models to activate first... Then the Controller chooses and activates another nominated model."

The latter quote would be impossible if the former quote were correct. You can't activate simultaneously and sequentially at the same time.

Plus, if you go with the theory that all companioned models are active even though they're not actually, you know, taking actions, you'd get some really wonky effects. If a model has a special power that's active during its activation, it would be active during the activation of all of its companioned allies. Which doesn't seem to be how people play things.

[Requirement]

Does companion actually activate every companioned model simultaneously, rather than activating them in a chain?

They all activate at the same time.

You can't activate simultaneously and sequentially at the same time.

You activate simultaneously then sequentially end your activations in the order declared.

This makes a pretty strong case that since both Viks are active when the replace effect happens that they would not get to continue on their activation. That may just be the way I see it though.

[TimeLapse]

Well, no need to get snotty.

My apologies for not having the book open in front of me. I bow to your rulebook-fu.

But you cannot seriously think that your interpretation is the one they intended. Wyrd currently and in the past have used some interesting word selections, we all get worked up about it here on the forums "BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT DOESN'T DO WHAT IT SAYS????" whambulance whambulance, rinse repeat.

So let me get this straight. Because she doesn't specifically SAY replace the acting Vik (which I'm pretty sure that's what they intended), you get to activate one, replace the other one with the Avatar, then IMMEDIATELY spring 4 actions of Avatar Vik all over your opponents face.

Yeah, that's fair.

Of course, all the other avatars can do the same... oh wait, THEY CAN'T. Not on turn 2 with an (all) action.

But hey, replacing 2 models with 1 right. Clearly the literal interpretation is correct.

I wasn't trying to be snotty I was just adopting your tone, since you quoted the rules i checked them and responded in like tone.

I think it is fair, unlike most other masters the Viktorias are two models, they both have activations.

I am sorry if my post offended you, i did not mean to. I am not being sarcastic i really did not mean to offend.

I believe it is impossible for players like myself to guess what the writers of the rules were thinking when they wrote the rule, so I go off the information I am provide, the way the rules are written, the way they appear on the card and what rule marshals say on this site.

I do believe that if they wanted the Viks to work the way you want them to, then they would have used the same writing they used for models like the Coryphee model you pointed out as an example of how you think they should work.

---------- Post added at 12:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 AM ----------

They all activate at the same time.

You activate simultaneously then sequentially end your activations in the order declared.

This makes a pretty strong case that since both Viks are active when the replace effect happens that they would not get to continue on their activation. That may just be the way I see it though.

I think it is a strong case for why the do, You see the replacement rules say the model replaced continues its activation using any remaining AP, since the Vik that is the replaced model has spent no AP and is active then it should be able to continue its activation as the replacement rules say it does. Also remember that only one vik is replaced by manifesting not both. the other vik's AP that took the all action does not apply to the avatar, at least as it written now.

Edited April 20, 2012 by TimeLapse

[Cadfan]

You activate simultaneously then sequentially end your activations in the order declared.

That's not what it says, though.

"Choose one of the nominated models to activate first"

"Then the Controller chooses and activates another nominated model."

"Continue activating the nominated models"

None of these wordings would make sense unless companion allows you to chain activations in a sequential order. I don't see the need to envision some new state of activated-but-not-REALLY-activated for companioned models who haven't yet had their turn... except for the first sentence, which does say the opposite of how I'd interpret the rules, but also doesn't make any sense.

[Lucidicide]

Companion goes like this:

1. Nominate all models in the Companion chain.

2. All models activate.

3. Choose one model to resolve all AP with first.

4. Choose another model in the Companion chain to resolve all AP with.

5. Repeat Step 4 until all models in the Companion chain have spent their AP.

This is how it works. It matters for things like the change to the Bury mechanics and for things like Guild Hounds, which get a free Walk if they activate near another Guild Hound. By Companioning them, they both get the free Walk even though one of them will move away before the other starts spending AP.

[Cunning]

Companion goes like this:

1. Nominate all models in the Companion chain.

2. All models activate.

3. Choose one model to resolve all AP with first.

4. Choose another model in the Companion chain to resolve all AP with.

5. Repeat Step 4 until all models in the Companion chain have spent their AP.

Yup this is correct. It's been clarified by Marshals a few times now.

[Sholto]

I too would like an official answer to this, but it does seem fairly clear from the rules at hand: If you Companion both Viks on Turn 2 when you have achieved one of their Manifest Requirements, then you can take an (all) Manifest action with one of them, Replace the other and then immediately spend four AP with the Avatar model.

Interesting point - Bloodlust of the Masamune is triggered when the Avatar "activates". Does a Replacing model actually "activate"? According to the RM it just "continues the Replaced model's activation".

Edited April 20, 2012 by Sholto

[Lucidicide]

Edit: Eh, I decided it wasn't really necessary.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Lucidicide

[Cunning]

Interesting point - Bloodlust of the Masamune is triggered when the Avatar "activates". Does a Replacing model actually "activate"? According to the RM it just "continues the Replaced model's activation".

That's a good question. I would say that it would be trigger but I can see arguments for and against.

[Lucidicide]

That's a good question. I would say that it would be trigger but I can see arguments for and against.

I would say that it does not. The avatar is not activating.

That said, if you can actually replace the other Vik and there was no Companion in effect, you would trigger it.

[Yosh]

I too would like an official answer to this, but it does seem fairly clear from the rules at hand: If you Companion both Viks on Turn 2 when you have achieved one of their Manifest Requirements, then you can take an (all) Manifest action with one of them, Replace the other and then immediately spend four AP with the Avatar model.

Where did you get that 4 AP part? If this thing works like we mentioned before - even then the Replaced model still had 2 APs. Remember, you just spent an (All) action with one Vik so she had no AP left. Also you replace only one model (with a possibility of 2 AP) and sacrifice the other... There's no way you could get 4. (+melee master excluded:P)

Edited April 20, 2012 by Yosh
i forgot melee master

[Lucidicide]

Where did you get that 4 AP part? If this thing works like we mentioned before - even then the Replaced model still had 2 APs. Remember, you just spent an (All) action with one Vik so she had no AP left. Also you replace only one model (with a possibility of 2 AP) and sacrifice the other... There's no way you could get 4.

I believe he is referencing Melee Master.

[Cunning]

2 general AP and 2 Melee Master AP

Ninja'd

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

I would say that it does not. The avatar is not activating.

That said, if you can actually replace the other Vik and there was no Companion in effect, you would trigger it.

The problem is that exactly when a model in an companion chain activates is a bit of a grey area.

For instance. Activate 2 viks. 1st Vik kills the Dreamer. Chompy pops out and activates immediately(i.e. after the 1st Vik's activation). Now the rules for immediately state that you can't interrupt a model's activation. If immediately can interrupt a companion chain then it stands to reason the other models in the chain have not activated yet.

[Lucidicide]

The problem is that exactly when a model in an companion chain activates is a bit of a grey area.

For instance. Activate 2 viks. 1st Vik kills the Dreamer. Chompy pops out and activates immediately(i.e. after the 1st Vik's activation). Now the rules for immediately state that you can't interrupt a model's activation. If immediately can interrupt a companion chain then it stands to reason the other models in the chain have not activated yet.

Maybe I understand this wrong, but:

1. Viks companion

2. Vik1 attacks and kills Dreamer

3. LCB pops out.

4. Vik1 activation ends

5. Vik2 goes.

6. LCB goes.

The reasoning being that Vik2 has already started its activation (as per Companion), and LCB doesn't get to interrupt an activation (unlike, say, Slow to Die).

[Cunning]

Nope. LCB will interrupt the companion chain. There was a ruling a while back on it.