Soulstone Miner - Burrowing

[Stonedog-7]

Something that came up the other day and we couldn't quite wrap out heads around

When the Soulstone Miner burrows it gets to move the marker 8" inthe Closing Phase, fine... if it choses to stay burrowed in the opening phase, as it hasn't used the (1) burrow this turn, does it still get to move 8" in the closing phase?

And just to confirm, if it's used Overdrive, will it only lose the wds & melee master if it's on the table in the closing phase? ie. can using burrow and staying off the table keep the (+2) melee master permanently as long as you always keep back an AP

[Adran]

It loses the wounds at the end of the activation, so I would assume that the Burying ends the activation.

It will get to keep the melee master on subsequent turns. so for 2 wounds you've effectively turned 1 AP into 2 melee attacks and untargetability after it has activated.

From memory yes it gets the 8" move every end phase it is tunnelling

[Stonedog-7]

So it would take the wounds even though it's buried and out of play?

Nice to get confirmation on the movement, i've been making it alot slower than it should have been

[Adran]

My take on it is as follows

It states it loses 2 wd at the end of its activation. (Not the closing phase which is why it differs from evrythign else being buried)

Being buried ends the activation.

So when it is beign buried, it will end its activation and recieve the 2 wd.

[ukrocky]

Agree with Adran and as such there's no real point to spend the (0) and ss in the first turn, just do it when it's about to hit something when it comes up.

First turn with it I've been (1) Defensive stance, (1) Burrow as it keeps the defensive stance for when it pops up.

[Stonedog-7]

I see now... yeah, that works nicely

And ukrocky, that's an awesome thought, the movement penalty won't affect the 8" while burrowed because it's not walking or charging... ok you lose some speed on the turn you pop up but you should be able to turn up in melee range... very nice

[ukrocky]

As you said you just pop up in range of something like nino thats usually hard to get to/easy to kill and just hit him 3 times before burrowing again, preferbaly using a crow to kill him (y) so the -2wk/cg doesnt effect you.

[Stern]

My take on it is as follows

It states it loses 2 wd at the end of its activation. (Not the closing phase which is why it differs from evrythign else being buried)

Being buried ends the activation.

So when it is beign buried, it will end its activation and recieve the 2 wd.

This is my take on it also... as this also makes the most sense

[tadaka]

Cant end its activation unill its been buryed by then its out of game and cant take the wounds. Makes no sense to end a models activation in the middle of an .action

[snord]

Bringing this up again, as it is being discussed in other threads as well. Can we get a ruling, plz?

* Soulstone Miner uses overdrive, and then buries itself. Will it take the 2 wds immediately even if it is buried? Or will it retain the effect and take 2 wds at the end of the first activation in which it is not buried?

In my mind, it would retain the effect and would not take the 2 wds until it ends an activation in play (i.e., not buried), but we can see by previous messages in this thread that there are several people that think different.

Thanks

[13th Warrior]

See, this is why I think the Bury mechanic needs reworking, it allows for effects that presumably (hopefully) were never intended. The Miner can take 2 wounds for Melee Master, keep that and Defensive Stance for the rest of the game, move further than most models with 2 walks, ignore terrain of all descriptions and only be attacked if the player doesn't get initiative (and only then if the first thing that happens is the Miner's attacked, possibly wasting other opportunities).

This is not a complaint about the Miner, it's a complaint about the whole Bury mechanic, which I think is wrong in pretty much all its aspects. Why not simply allow effects to continue whether a model's buried or not? This gets over all the above nonsense and avoids the need to make special cases for things like the Stitched Together.

Is Bury really working the way it was intended or are players simply taking advantage of an unintended side effect?

[snord]

Don't shoot the messenger! :peep:

To be honest, I have mixed feelings about models retaining effects while buried, but this is how the current rules are defined.

So, under current rules, how the miner is supposed to work?

[Q'iq'el]

Ending of an activation is not the same thing as Closing Phase, timing-wise. There's nothing preventing model from ending activation, finishing all the effects to complete at that point and then getting buried.

Most effects don't get resolved or expire when model is buried, because it gets buried before Closing Phase, where they would be resolved. It doesn't mean all the effects are like that, IMHO.

[tadaka]

The only reason any model does resolve effects is because its not in play when they would resolve. The phase of the game is not an issue imho. I see no reason you would end the activation in the middle of the effect. Its activation ends because its no longer in play not because you used the effect. If its in play its still in its activation.

[Q'iq'el]

What I'm trying to say is that "at the end" dowsn't mean "after". What it means is your activation is going to end when you Bury, so right before that moment you are "at the end" of the activation - that's when you resolve it. Then you Bury the model, which effectively ends the activation.

[tadaka]

I get that but i disagree with what your saying.

[Adran]

Well I can't prove its right, but the nearest thign in the game is getting killed. And when you get killed, you do all the things that trigger on being killed before you remove the model.

On the Assumption that Being Buried ends your activation (and if it doesn't, you get some very long games...) just before you remove the buried model you should do all the things that trigger on being buried, or ending the activation. Then you remove the model.

But I can't prove your view is wrong either, so currently its gentlemans agreement or a card flip each game.

Personally in Malifaux V2 I would like the end phase to effect buried models, it makes it all a lot easier to understand, and prevents a lot of this combotastic approach that seems to follow with every model that can be buried.

But thems not the rules.

[magicpockets]

I disagree with the main view here. Bury is a (1) action which by default needs to be completed before your activation can end (your activation can't end until you have finished all of your actions). Therefore you are buried before your activation ends, so no wounds as effects can't resolve whilst you are buried -

1. Declare (1) bury action

2. Bury Model

3. Finish (1) bury action

4. End Activation

5. Resolve effects which happen on end of activation

6. Model is buried so effects don't resolve

I don't see how that could be any different?

On the Assumption that Being Buried ends your activation (and if it doesn't, you get some very long games...) just before you remove the buried model you should do all the things that trigger on being buried, or ending the activation.

Your interpretation is not based on the rules - nothing says being buried ends you activation (if it did the Dreamer would be pretty useless), let alone ending your activation before you are buried

Edited November 29, 2011 by magicpockets

[Cunning]

Your interpretation is not based on the rules - nothing says being buried ends you activation (if it did the Dreamer would be pretty useless), let alone ending your activation before you are buried

It has been ruled that burying ends your activation. It certainly does not make the Dreamer useless.

[Q'iq'el]

I disagree with the main view here. Bury is a (1) action which by default needs to be completed before your activation can end (your activation can't end until you have finished all of your actions).

That assumption isn't exactly true.

Bury is not an action. There are many different actions that can result in your models or opponent models getting buried (in case of Soulstone Miner it is (1)Tunneling), but the act of getting buried itself is one of 3 mechanics that can take you out of play and not an action per se.

Sacrificed - out of play and out of game

Killed - out of play and out of game

Buried - just out of play

All 3 are described as such on page 13.

Adrian is right in the analogy he makes with a model getting killing, I feel. Effects that happen when your model is killed happen before you remove it from play.

It's only assume it is the same with Burying.

The only real question is, how does getting buried interacts with the activation. I think the assumption that it ends the activation is solid, but then what about kill and sacrifice? Would the effects happening at the end of activation be triggered before you remove a killed or sacrificed model from play (where it matters, obviously)?

[magicpockets]

Bury is not an action.

I know, I meant it's a (1) action which bury's a model

the act of getting buried itself is one of 3 mechanics that can take you out of play and not an action per se.

...

Adrian is right in the analogy he makes with a model getting killing, I feel. Effects that happen when your model is killed happen before you remove it from play. It's only assume it is the same with Burying.

By your reasoning this is different then. Effects which happen when your model is killed happen before you remove the model, so effects which happen when you bury a model happen before you remove the model.

There is no reason that effects which happen on the end of an activation resolve before you bury a model, same as you don't resolve effects which happen at the end of an activation when you kill/sacrifice your model.

The only real question is, how does getting buried interacts with the activation. I think the assumption that it ends the activation is solid, but then what about kill and sacrifice? Would the effects happening at the end of activation be triggered before you remove a killed or sacrificed model from play (where it matters, obviously)?

That's my point above

It has been ruled that burying ends your activation. It certainly does not make the Dreamer useless.

Got a link?

Even so, if burying ends your activation, surely your activation can't end until you are buried?

Edited November 29, 2011 by magicpockets

[Q'iq'el]

Got a link?

Even so, if burying ends your activation, surely your activation can't end until you are buried?

Nah. It ends when the model is buried, and the effect is resolved "at the end", so at the very moment the model gets buried.

I think there are cases of other effects being resolved at the same point in time. It doesn't have to stretch in time for you to be able to squeeze in the effects needing to be resolved, I think.

[magicpockets]

^^Post above edited whilst you posted

[magicpockets]

Thinking about this, is it not the same as Painkilers on Bette which people have been doing forever? Do painkillers on Bette and then bury her before it resolves and sacrifices her.

[Cunning]

Can't find the ruling itself. I can find lots of posts referring to it but that's it.

[magicpockets]

Can't find the ruling itself. I can find lots of posts referring to it but that's it.

Found it mate - http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26913&highlight=activation - be useful to have it here.