Pox Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 well after 2 years just playing with the vics, suppose it is time to dabble in a new crew - but I must admit i really like the play-style of the vics, hard hitting in melee but fragile and need to be used carefully. Collodi has caught my eye mainly because he looks fast and can close in on gunlines much quicker then the vics ever could. Whilst wicked dolls look ace againt low df units. he does seem fragile though, as i'm pretty sure any guild line could blow his marionette's apart and then nino could open fire and blat him to history in one turn quite happily. especially since it is quite hard work to bring marionette's back (2 action.) first off would like to know if A - Colloddi is as fragile as i think, and B - is he effective? next off thinking of using in connection with a master - first impressions where for Zoraida because i love the way she manipulates the deck but am now beggining to wonder if Lilith would suit my play-style better. With her fast and high melee damage she is another alpha strike player - then finally chuck in the hooded rider and some wicked dolls and go crazy. just need some opinions on the effectivenss of mr collodi really as he is a lot of stones with his 4 marionettes. also has anyone else used him with lilith much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) A) Yes, he is that fragile, and against some crews he is a complete liability (anything with blasts) Yes, but he is situational. For example, objectives where his movement can be brought to bear are great (eg Destroy Evidence). he is also great at killing models that rely on damage reduction to survive (spirits, armoured models, hard to wound) since he plinks stuff to death anyway. Personally I'm not a big Collodi fan, but he definitely has his uses. I'd say that leading a crew with him is a bad idea due to his situational-ness, but you could argue that having a cache of 7 to spend on extra models makes that worth it. Depends on your playstyle, but I'd say its best to get him with a real master and give yourself choices. Zoraida is kind of the default because otherwise you're hiring Collodi and 1 Marionette due to special forces restrictions, which doesn't really work Edited October 31, 2011 by Calmdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pox Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) A) Yes, he is that fragile, and against some crews he is a complete liability (anything with blasts) Yes, but he is situational. For example, objectives where his movement can be brought to bear are great (eg Destroy Evidence). he is also great at killing models that rely on damage reduction to survive (spirits, armoured models, hard to wound) since he plinks stuff to death anyway. Personally I'm not a big Collodi fan, but he definitely has his uses. I'd say that leading a crew with him is a bad idea due to his situational-ness, but you could argue that having a cache of 7 to spend on extra models makes that worth it. Depends on your playstyle, but I'd say its best to get him with a real master and give yourself choices. Zoraida is kind of the default because otherwise you're hiring Collodi and 1 Marionette due to special forces restrictions, which doesn't really work umm that is all very interesting, was thinking he would be better with a real master in the team. Though the crew creator on the wyrd site lets me hire collodi and 4 marionettes to Lilith - guessing collodi removes the restriction on special forces Doll. was thinking his speed would let him pick his targets well, and he could always hide a turn out of site and line up for a turn 2 charge - most people can't do blasts in combat. was thinking at 35SS something along the lines of: Lilith with 5 stones. Hooded rider as he cannot be targetted by ranged attacks and is quite fast - 8ss insidious madness - 4ss collodi - 8ss 4 marionettes - 8ss 2 wicked dolls - 4ss drive forward and aim for a turn 2 alpha strike tactic. Edited October 31, 2011 by Pox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwergenkrieger Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 next off thinking of using in connection with a master - first impressions where for Zoraida because i love the way she manipulates the deck but am now beggining to wonder if Lilith would suit my play-style better. With her fast and high melee damage she is another alpha strike player - then finally chuck in the hooded rider and some wicked dolls and go crazy. I just want to point out: what´s the deal with a new crew if you´re going to get the same playstyle? If you want to run the same playstyle, tailor with your existing crew, change models, get new ideas, new combos. IMO the main reason to run something different should be the will to run – mmhh, well – something different, isn´t it? Zoraida, Collodi and Puppets play a really fast game, at least that´s my impression, but they don´t rely on raw melee power, which might be that difference you´re looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBmaster Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 With Collodi I have found that the marionettes are mostly for the movement, the wicked dolls are the attack squad (0 action to move b2b w Collodi anywhere on the board) and stitched together wich block los untill you are in range. With Collodi leading the crew in a 20ss game you get to field 27ss worth of model, thats 4 marionettes, 3 wicked dolls, and 2 stitched. This is kinda a 2 trick pony kind crew but I managed to table Lucius turn 3 the other day with this exact crew. The only problem is you can't get more wicked dolls so, I prefer to use Collodi with Zoraida I have a great 40 point crew that I like to play Zoraida Collodi marionettes x4 Doppelganger Weaver Widow Stitched together x1 or wicked doll x2 I guess the lilith thing could kind work what with illusionary forest for blocking los but Collodi really needs more wicked dolls to be effective with the 40ss list I just gave you could have 3 extra wicked dolls per turn, voodoo doll and 2 obeys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannonFodder Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Collodi is my first master for Neverborn, and He is viable without proxying. His minions are fragile, but hit hard, as for him being fragile, Not really. Plus the wicked dolls usually heal him if they have a free (0) action. I've had games where he took around 20 damage but was healed over and over again. another benefit of him is that he does to need SS, 3 are enough to use defensively should do. he is not realy offensive, more of a King on a chess board, Key central piece, but does not do much himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Though the crew creator on the wyrd site lets me hire collodi and 4 marionettes to Lilith - guessing collodi removes the restriction on special forces Doll. The crew creator has no official authority at all. There may well be a change between the cards and book that let Collodi hire more Marionettes despite SF rules, but I cant remember it if there is. I dont have my cards right now. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 The henchmen rules will state that any crew which contains the henchmen has the only 2 special forces limit lifted. (but they can still only be from 1 type) I've yet to find an error in the crew creator. Whilst I accept your view that a web ap does not overrule the rules, it is a web ap that has been written with all the rules included. Personal recomendation If the crew selector says something is/isn't allowed, look carefully at relevent rules to see if you can see why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pox Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) I just want to point out: what´s the deal with a new crew if you´re going to get the same playstyle? If you want to run the same playstyle, tailor with your existing crew, change models, get new ideas, new combos. IMO the main reason to run something different should be the will to run – mmhh, well – something different, isn´t it? Zoraida, Collodi and Puppets play a really fast game, at least that´s my impression, but they don´t rely on raw melee power, which might be that difference you´re looking for. I've pretty much tailored my existing crew, tried all the models and done every combo under the sun - should prob write a vic tactics on pullmyfinger. As said been using her for 2 years now. I still enjoy the play-style of alpha strike I just want to do it differently and the only different options I have left is with a different team. NBmaster - ye raise quite a few good points, and in small games would certainly think of just running collodi by himself. Would probably drop the rider for more 3 more wicked dolls - making it 5 in a 35SS list. Zoraida does seem like the obvious choice, but i think Lilith might be a totally different play on the collodi list giving me some more unique oppertunities. Would quite like to use her illusionary forest to grant cover to mr collodi if the terrain does not help and then drop Alluring on the enemy just before all the wicked dolls teleport up and smack people with wicked intentions. Heck I would hate to have -2df and need to pass df14 duels to do try to move away and if they are in combat range of lilith she can pretty much keep em there or do damage as they move - nice! Willing to give collodi a go and a puppet team does seem good fun, whether or not it is led by Zoraida or Lilith might depend on which one i enjoy playing the most. But at least i'm pretty sure collodi is not a complete points sink now at least and that people do use him. actually at 35SS thinking along the lines now of - for a big joke alpha strike: lilith - 4ss cache collodi - 8ss 3 marionettes - 6ss 3 wicked dolls - 9ss Killjoy! - 12ss hide first turn, then bang collodi up giving all dolls fast and hold eveyone in combat range - sacrifice a marionette to get killjoy - run lilith up and reduce eveyones defence then blast all the wicked dolls on defensive stance and teleport across - nasty, nasty. Edited November 1, 2011 by Pox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrova Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 To give him a bit more survivability you can use the doppleganger to give everything fast by copying Collodi's Puppet Show. They Collodi is free to Fill Stones on himself and one other, perhaps a Stitched. Collodi with Armor 2, and Hard to Kill is a bit tougher to take down, and the movement loss means nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Another thought which I think only one person even hinted at was Weaver Widow. With her ability to throw out a Teddy, does anyone think that that my change the nature of a Collodi run crew? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBmaster Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Hey just wanted to let ya'll know I played the 40ss crew that i had posted up about ealier with the addition of Lilith to make it a brawl i have posted it in the Battle reports section. Just so you know i played against Dreamer/Lilith with 2 sets of Lelu/Lilitu and i smashed YOU KNOW WHO's theory right out of the ball park. Check out the battle report for more details Thanks. http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 You didn't smash any theory based on that report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBmaster Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Okay so just because I tabled a crew with 2 lelu's and two lilitu's by turn 4 with minimal loses winning 7 to 1 dosnt mean you shouldn't take L and L it just means they arnt hard to shut down if you know what you are doing. It also shows that they prob wont rise to the dmg hieghts that everone says they reach on as regular a basis as everyone says they will. This battle just gives me all the more reason not to play them very often as I have never really liked them to begin with because I was made to believe that you must run them to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heraldo Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Okay so just because I tabled a crew with 2 lelu's and two lilitu's by turn 4 with minimal loses winning 7 to 1 dosnt mean you shouldn't take L and L it just means they arnt hard to shut down if you know what you are doing. It also shows that they prob wont rise to the dmg hieghts that everone says they reach on as regular a basis as everyone says they will. This battle just gives me all the more reason not to play them very often as I have never really liked them to begin with because I was made to believe that you must run them to win. You by no means have to run them to win. It depends on the level of your opponent. However, when you're playing against good opponents, you need to maximise your chances of winning and leaving the twins at home does not do that. I can promise you that if you ran that list against a good Dreamer player, you'd be tabled in very short order, 9 games out of 10 (because everyone has to have bad luck some time). Edit: Took a look at your report. Your opponent didnt alpha strike you turn 1, and then tried to kill Lilith with Chompy. You probably could have beaten this guy with a 25ss list if that's how he plays Dreamer. Using examples of bad play and bad players to disprove arguments is not good practice. Edited November 2, 2011 by Heraldo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pox Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 one battle report never proves anything, but as a primary vics player can say they have never bothered me in the slightest and wouldn't call myself a bad player. Seen them used regularly in a alpha strike dreamer list and a pandora list - heck find stitched more annoying. wouldn't dream of using them in a collodi/lilith team up as too many points and would not compliment my team build at all. want to discuss the merits/demerits of the two L's guess would start a new thread as not entirely relevant to this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 The only problem is you can't get more wicked dolls so, I prefer to use Collodi with Zoraida Wicked Dolls can make more Wicked Dolls, just not on the turn you (0) teleport to Collodi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierowmaniac Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Has anyone got any more feedback on Collodi? I'm a Neewbie and have only played two games so far with my Seamus crew, but already looking at what I might want to get in the future. I saw the Colllodi model and thought Yep thats the one. Is he playable straight out the starter box or do I really need to consider some other models to get the best from him? For now im only considering scrap games. Sorry for the thread Necromancy BTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_madhatter1 Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Has anyone got any more feedback on Collodi? I'm a Neewbie and have only played two games so far with my Seamus crew, but already looking at what I might want to get in the future. I saw the Colllodi model and thought Yep thats the one. Is he playable straight out the starter box or do I really need to consider some other models to get the best from him? For now im only considering scrap games. Sorry for the thread Necromancy BTW I'm going to start Collodi as well, and all you really need to play him is his box set plus stitched and maybe some more wicked dolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Using Collodi as a leader currently means a very restricted crew list, but it can be effective. Once the Widow weaver and some of the effergies are out he is more viable. If i remember rightly, his starter box is low on points, so its probably not that good on its own (17 points I think) but add in a booster of Stiched togetehr and you'll have all the currently released models for him and can play up to 30 soulstone games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_hazard Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I've played him a bit but with Zoraida. Having the Wicked Dolls zip between the two for a 0 action is really good fun. As someone mentioned before you, do lots of little damage but you can set up a nice alpha strike. Assuming you're already in melee Collodi makes all puppets in range fast then can give 1 (or 2 depending on flipping/cheating another mask) melee expert. Both Wicked Dolls & Marionettes have paired and the Marionettes also have Flurry. This means one, possibly two, Marionettes can each generate 5 attacks in a single turn and the rest can do 3 attacks each. For the alpha strike you have Collodi, all the Marionettes and one other Doll before your opponent gets a turn. If you're not in combat you can still have a threat range of about 20" and have the two supercharged Marionettes available for 9 or 10 strikes plus a Wicked Doll with 3 strikes. For those who are interested... Activate Collodi, Puppet Show, Breathe Life, Doll Friends. Marionette 1, Walk, Pull Strings but only as far as 8" from Collodi, Place Collodi on far side of Marionette to gain another inch. Marionette 2, Retract placing Marionette on far side of Collodi to gain another inch, Walk, Pull Strings but only as far as 8" from Collodi, Place Collodi on far side of Marionette to gain another inch. Marionette 3 & 4, Retract placing Marionette on far side of Collodi to gain another inch, hit away. Wicked Doll, Hag's Toys placing within 2" of Collodi, hit away. If it's still alive or has friends around prepare to duck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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