Regeneration and Poison

[Cornelious1424]

So I had a game tonight where a model with Regeneration received Poison. Which effect would happen first?

Ex. LCB attacks Sybelle with his toothy maw of doom, damages and gives her Poison 2. At this point she has 2 wounds left, so when she activates she will either heal with Regen or die from Poison before she can heal with Regen. Both me and my friend didn't know the timing on this so we "flipped off" in the interest of fairness. Fortunately I won the flip which saved Sybells beautiful face (for that turn).

[ravenborne]

I believe the player activating can choose the order of effects, however I am not a forum official rules guy.

[Csonti]

This was asked several times but was never answered by a marshal. So I'm also eager to get an official answer.

[CubertFarnsworth]

Since Regen and Poison both happen at the start of the models activation, pg 6 under the Timing rules under Players should resolve effects occurring simultaneously in the following order:

Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player, then by activation order of that player's models.

So Poison first........Regen second............Sybelle should be :dead:

[poulpox]

I think they are simultaneous and therefore cancel each other out, but I might be wrong

[Q'iq'el]

Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player, then by activation order of that player's models.

So Poison first........Regen second............Sybelle should be :dead:

If anything, the Poison would be a non-immediate effect. You have Poison applied to your modem as a lasting effect, and then it applies damage with delay at the start of the target's activation. I'm not entirely sure of this, though.

Regenaration on the other hand is rather clearly an ability which goes off and immediately affects the model - ergo it is an immediate effect.

So, IMO, we have one of two situtions possible:

A) Both are immediate, but the acting model's effects go first and it Regenerates before receiving the Wd from poison.

Only Regeneration is an immediate effect and it goes first by definition.

[Fading Memory]

We play it similar to the way Lilitu is played without a Lelu on the table. The model can choose to take the wounds first then heal, or heal than take the wounds.

[Issalbotproto]

We've always just applied it all at the same time so she's takes poison and regen at the same time leaving 1 wound remaining

[Lucidicide]

Pretty sure active player decides when two things happen at once, and active player is the person activating the model.

[jmp_mydog]

pretty sure active player decides when two things happen at once, and active player is the person activating the model.

+1

[Cornelious1424]

Rules Marshal, Rules Marshal, Rules Marshal!!!

...it worked with Beetlejuice

[Mr_Smigs]

doesn't page 6 state:

Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player.

Immediate: Resolve Poison counters.

Active Player: Resolve Regeneration.

[Lucidicide]

doesn't page 6 state:

Immediate: Resolve Poison counters.

Active Player: Resolve Regeneration.

What makes you conclude that poison is immediate and that regeneration is not?

[CubertFarnsworth]

doesn't page 6 state:

Immediate: Resolve Poison counters.

Active Player: Resolve Regeneration.

Yeah I mentioned this at the start of the thread, so far only you and I see eye to eye on this.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=321271&postcount=4

[Lucidicide]

Pg 117 and Pg 118 have the rules for Poison and Regen. Both say "at the start of its activation" and neither says immediately. So therefore... you're randomly assigning poison to immediately.

If there are two things that happen at the same time ("at the start of its activation"), active player chooses.

[Mr_Smigs]

Pg 117 and Pg 118 have the rules for Poison and Regen. Both say "at the start of its activation" and neither says immediately. So therefore... you're randomly assigning poison to immediately.

If there are two things that happen at the same time ("at the start of its activation"), active player chooses.

Slow is an "immediate" effect that applies at the start of the model's activation.

I'm using that as a guideline.

similarly, other abilities which might not activate (EG: Relentles) also have immediate effects, but would seem to be resolved after the "immediate" effects.

Really, there are alot of ways to read this:

1. Poison goes first. A model with 2 wounds is reduced to zero wound, dies, cannot regen.

2. Poison and Regen happen at the same time. The model's original 2 wounds are removed, the model is at 0 wounds. the model gains the "killed" status, and is applied 2 wounds from regen. it still has the killed status, and dies.

3. Active player chooses. Regen adds 2 health, poison removes 2. the model lives. (Alas, the book doesn't say that anywhere)

4. Poison and Regen counter each other. nothing happens.

whoops. nope, can't read it like 4. In cases where that happens (EG: Slow/Fast) there are specific mention of abilities canceling each other out.

now, back to supporting method 1.

Both effects are Immediate. I can totally agree with that.

HOWEVER

One of those effects is also an "Effect of the active player"

making it classify twice.

because "effects of the active player" must resolve after "immediate effects" this means it would que after effects caused by the inactive player (in this case, poison)

[CubertFarnsworth]

Pg 117 and Pg 118 have the rules for Poison and Regen. Both say "at the start of its activation" and neither says immediately. So therefore... you're randomly assigning poison to immediately.

If there are two things that happen at the same time ("at the start of its activation"), active player chooses.

Can you tell me where in the rulebook it says that active player chooses......not being sarcastic, I really cannot find it.

Both effects are Immediate. I can totally agree with that.

HOWEVER

One of those effects is also an "Effect of the active player"

making it classify twice.

because "effects of the active player" must resolve after "immediate effects" this means it would que after effects caused by the inactive player (in this case, poison)

Excellent point. Both effects are immediate as they occur AT THE START of your activation, however Regen is an effect of the active player. But you can also argue that Poison is now an effect of the active player........I just talked myself out of this......LOL!

[Lucidicide]

So my argument is that I see nothing that says one way or another whether either effect is immediate. It seems the make the most sense to consider them both one way or the other: in this case, immediate works just fine.

I'm just not sure I agree with your conclusion.

P: Immediate effects happen before other effects.

P: Poison is an immediate effect.

C1: Poison happens before other effects.

P: Immediate effects happen before other effects.

P: Regeneration is an immediate effect.

C2: Poison happens before other effects.

P: Poison and Regeneration both happen at the same time.

P: When two things happen at the same time, the active player chooses the order.

C3: If a model has Poison and Regeneration, the active player can choose the order of the effects.

What you add in is:

P: Regeneration is an effect of the player.

In my opinion, it's immediate or it's not. I don't think it double classifies. I can understand why you say that, but I don't see how this gets another classification.

[FearLord]

Slow is an "immediate" effect that applies at the start of the model's activation.

I'm using that as a guideline.

P.20 lists Action modifiers (on p.34) as ongoing effects, not Immediate effects...

[Lucidicide]

Pg 6 doesn't say that exactly, I think that's just something that's come up on the forum before.

"Players should resolve effects occuring simultaneously in the following order:

-Effects that must occur (before those that may)

-Immediate effects, then acting player, then by activation order of models"

That's not actually a quote, by the way, it's a paraphrase.

Neither is a may (both are a must). Both are immediate. So it goes to the next criteria: acting player.

[FearLord]

Actually, I think Regen is an immediate effect (because it occurs and is applied immediately) and Poison is an ongoing effect (because its does not stack and it isn't applied immediately when poison is inflicted).

Therefore, Regen first, then poison...

[Lucidicide]

Actually, I think Regen is an immediate effect (because it occurs and is applied immediately) and Poison is an ongoing effect (because its does not stack and it isn't applied immediately when poison is inflicted).

Therefore, Regen first, then poison...

I think Poison is an ongoing effect, too, but I think the application of Wd is an immediate effect. The example if gives in the book is a Sorrow with Emotional Trauma. In that example, ET is an ongoing effect, but the Wds it gives are not, they are immediate.

Regardless, I haven't been convinced yet that Poison has a specific status that makes it go 'faster' than Regen.

[Mr_Smigs]

P.20 lists Action modifiers (on p.34) as ongoing effects, not Immediate effects...

action modifiers stack. they are immediate. look into the Slow/Fast interaction from about a month or two ago, we [the forums] had this discussion.

the application is treated as "ongoing" (result does not stack) even though the accrual of the "waiting to be resolved" is "immediate" (can have multiple instances)

those definitions of "Immediate" and "Ongoing" on page 20 are used very loosely with fast/slow... and thus arguing with fast/slow isn't exactly our best option, just the easiest to find in the rules..

first up:

Poison is not an Effect. it's a Token. which makes this discussion even more difficult because it is an Effect caused by a Token that represents an Effect.

which we could argue makes it Immediate in application, Ongoing in nature.

but then we get into the Poison

• ability : Poison X (treated like Ongoing since it replaces, not stacks)
  
• effect : Deal Wd based on poison token (Effectively, each poison token does 1 Wd, and the effect stacks, making it immediate)
  
• token : placed by the Poison X ability.
  

a three part "event" with different resolution timings.

Lucidicide, seriously, to recant the previous request: WHERE DOES IT SAY ACTIVE PLAYER CHOOSES?

Edited October 7, 2011 by Mr_Smigs
[mild corrections in terminology]

[Dracomax]

Slow is an "immediate" effect that applies at the start of the model's activation.

I'm using that as a guideline.

similarly, other abilities which might not activate (EG: Relentles) also have immediate effects, but would seem to be resolved after the "immediate" effects.

Really, there are alot of ways to read this:

1. Poison goes first. A model with 2 wounds is reduced to zero wound, dies, cannot regen.

2. Poison and Regen happen at the same time. The model's original 2 wounds are removed, the model is at 0 wounds. the model gains the "killed" status, and is applied 2 wounds from regen. it still has the killed status, and dies.

3. Active player chooses. Regen adds 2 health, poison removes 2. the model lives. (Alas, the book doesn't say that anywhere)

4. Poison and Regen counter each other. nothing happens.

whoops. nope, can't read it like 4. In cases where that happens (EG: Slow/Fast) there are specific mention of abilities canceling each other out.

now, back to supporting method 1.

Both effects are Immediate. I can totally agree with that.

HOWEVER

One of those effects is also an "Effect of the active player"

making it classify twice.

because "effects of the active player" must resolve after "immediate effects" this means it would que after effects caused by the inactive player (in this case, poison)

In option 2, why would you apply poison first if they go simultaneously? Even if you did, why would you resolve the effects (i.e. killed) before the other immediate action? why wouldn't this work like using slow to die and spending a soulstone to heal?

Option 4 seems most likely to me. Not that they cancel out--you would still have both regen and poison, but that their effects cancel out.

[Mr_Smigs]

in option 2, you're not applying poison first,

you're tracking old and new wounds.

Old wounds = 0, model is killed.

option 2 implies there is a state where the model is simultaniously at 0 and 2 wounds.

option 4 has the problem of Slow/Fast setting the standards for "their effects cancel out, apply neither" having their own, special rules.

[Dracomax]

in option 2, you're not applying poison first,

you're tracking old and new wounds.

Old wounds = 0, model is killed.

option 2 implies there is a state where the model is simultaniously at 0 and 2 wounds.

option 4 has the problem of Slow/Fast setting the standards for "their effects cancel out, apply neither" having their own, special rules.

How are you not applying it first with the way option 2 is written? You specifically say that you reduce to 0 before applying the regeneration.

that aside, it still doesn't answer the question of the difference with slow to die(i.e. you are at 0 wounds=killed and healing effects, abilities, etc. that keep you from dieing and make Colette cool) and this. If they happen simultaneously, then why should the effects of one(killed) resolve before the other one?

(note, not saying they do happen simultaneously, as for them to truly happen simultaneously would more or less go against every other instance of such I've seen, just trying to understand the logic here)