Hard Comp Restrictions

[Math Mathonwy]

Funnily enough, I would argue that the more extreme the terrain, the more the Dreamer likes it. Daydreams float and Dreamer is a Spirit. They summon their whole crew freely within a set distance, so they are much more agile and able to react to the opponent's moves in dense terrain.

So in effect it seems that you're boosting the already hugely powerful crews like Dreamer, Showgirls and Kirai.

Yeah, base tricks (one of my regular opponents is the king of base tricks doing stuff that seems completely impossible with clever micro management, so I have had to come to know that style of play though I'm nowhere close to his skill) can hamper LCB and so on, but that knife cuts both ways and Dreamer has way more ability to take advantage of those tactics.

[ispep]

People spend thousands of dollars buying rares for their tournament decks in competetive CCG's. for instance, EVEN after being banned, Jace sells in played (read: ugh) condition, at $62 a pop. decks normally used four of that card. I believe at its high and still legal it was selling for 180$ a pop. which is more expensive then buying the four master boxes for a faction of malifaux.

I'm not for banning anything, but i'm perfectly fine with them altering it.

Just because a card is banned in one format, does not make it valueless. You can still play Jace, the Mind Sculpter in legacy, vintage, commander, or any number of casual formats.

And regardless of what someone pays for a single card, its actual value is 27 cents, 1/15th of the retail value of a booster pack.

Even if you only play one format, and a card is banned/cuddled in that format, you still have options for reclaiming your investment, as there are other people who play the other formats. If you cuddle a model so that it is useless, no one will want it, and you have no chance of recouping the cash value you paid in the first place nor the time you invested in assembly/painting.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, Showgirls didn't get much of the boosting on the table I've tested it on. Partially, for sure, due to lack of the experience of their player... but also because being able to switch out of LoS is a powerful defensive and offensive mechanic, but you still need your models to walk there somehow first.

Coryphée were often limited to 5 or 4" walks before they hit the doors or because of ladders they had to climb. Doves were flying around oppening some doors for them, but they weren't that good for getting the doors inside of buildings.

Not to mention, that Coryphée opening doors aren't Sword dancing that much and Doves spending their actions on (1)interact aren't blowing up or Dueling opponents.

I'd also argue that a Dreamer crew would have to change into the Dreamer at a precise point to enter the building through the wall. The mere fact that you have to do it in the places that don't fit your "optimal" route, or that you need to fly around more than usual, throws the range of your moves off by at least several inches, sometimes more... Sure, you are in better position than a normal crew if you can fly in at the 2nd floor and turn the dynamite mark, but at the same time it is your very master doing the job other masters delegate a Terror Tot or Silurid to complete.

Clearly, if your most powerful model has to spend his AP on mundane actions like that, rather than delivering the death to the opponent, he is already tempered quite a bit in his deadliness (after all, you are given free hand to race for your objectives in the meantime). If you threaten him with canceling his already completed objective, which evan a very cheap model can sometimes achieve (obviously all depends on the Strategies), you force him to spend even more time dealing with threats of little significance, and again, The Dreamer has to do it himself.

[Dolomyte]

Just because a card is banned in one format, does not make it valueless. You can still play Jace, the Mind Sculpter in legacy, vintage, commander, or any number of casual formats.

And regardless of what someone pays for a single card, its actual value is 27 cents, 1/15th of the retail value of a booster pack.

Even if you only play one format, and a card is banned/cuddled in that format, you still have options for reclaiming your investment, as there are other people who play the other formats. If you cuddle a model so that it is useless, no one will want it, and you have no chance of recouping the cash value you paid in the first place nor the time you invested in assembly/painting.

And no wants stuff cuddled to uselessness. we want stuff cuddled to balance. IE, Changing Lelitus trigger to anything other then a second mask does not lower her effectiveness at all, but prevents the lure bomb. She is still a good model, but she is no longer a broken one.

Changing the alps to no negative on the wp flip, or upping their point cost by one. does not cuddle them into obscurity. it simply adjusts a broken mechanic.

[Math Mathonwy]

I'd also argue that a Dreamer crew would have to change into the Dreamer at a precise point to enter the building through the wall. The mere fact that you have to do it in the places that don't fit your "optimal" route' date=' or that you need to fly around more than usual, throws the range of your moves off by at least several inches, sometimes more...[/quote']

Daydreams can fly on the roofs of the buildings and then summon stuff inside them, right?

This makes no sense to me. If the terrain is restrictive, obviously the crew that can better handle restrictive terrain has the edge. That crew is Dreamer and Kirai at the very least - both on the upper end of the power scale already. I mean, sure, this system limits the effectiveness of NekimaLilituPandoraChainLure, but it boosts Dreamer a lot and since you see the terrain before you choose your crew, Neverborn are very well equipped to reacting to restrictive terrain - in fact, better than other factions (Ressers through Kirai excepted), so it only exacerbates the current imbalance.

The most powerful model can do this stuff before the opponent has any models near the objectives. Dreamer has incredibly mobility and restrictive terrain hampers him only a bit while hampering crews with less mobility more. This makes the imbalance in mobility greater than it was since the one on top is punished less than the weaker one.

[Q'iq'el]

But restrictive terrain is not only about movement restrictions. You can't charge models you cannot see. You can't chain-lure someone, if he is behind a wall with a gate...

Sure you can bomb someone by popping Alps on the other side of the wall, but that won't be perfect encirclement with all your Alps, will it? And the LCB won't add his attacks to the thing either, as he'd have to walk to open the Doors.

On paper, you can avoid all the restrictions altogether. In reality, if you give player terrain to use to his advantage, he will do so and Kirai and Dreamer will find themselves limited as well.

Think of this example: A Shikome or an Ikiryo can walk through the wall, but it can't charge through it. That's already a shaven off from the damage flip and a 2~3" shave off their threat range. Not bad, considering you as their opponent can take that into consideration when you position your models, huh?

Consider now, how Lilith in the same environment can charge and strike the spirit, 2" away on the other side of the wall, without opening the doors (as long as she doesn't need to cross the wall). Even if it doesn't enhance her usual threat range or attack power in any way, in the circumstances it becomes quite a considerable buff you almost never see her use, right?

Edited September 13, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Math Mathonwy]

My pal in organizing tournaments and the guy I've played Malifaux with the most has had a Terralinx (precursor of Terraclips that makes similar kinds of boards but takes a crazy amount of work) board for a while now, so I have experience of city boards. This isn't idle speculation. I've faced Kirai on such a board and the effect is hugely in favour of Kirai no matter how you slice it, IME.

You cite the inability to charge through a wall as a con, while in reality the ability to walk through the wall is a huge plus. I don't know how much experience you've had on city tables, but I've played on them and my experiences speak very different from yours.

[Q'iq'el]

My pal in organizing tournaments and the guy I've played Malifaux with the most has had a Terralinx (precursor of Terraclips that makes similar kinds of boards but takes a crazy amount of work) board for a while now, so I have experience of city boards. This isn't idle speculation. I've faced Kirai on such a board and the effect is hugely in favour of Kirai no matter how you slice it, IME.

You cite the inability to charge through a wall as a con, while in reality the ability to walk through the wall is a huge plus. I don't know how much experience you've had on city tables, but I've played on them and my experiences speak very different from yours.

Oh I perfectly agree it is an advantage. The advantages are not as clearly cut though and that's all I've tried to say.

And secondly, as I said already, mix the buildings and piazzas, gates and wide streets. Provide both for shooting lanes and for go around covered ways. I understand some crews deal with some of these devices easier than others. Part of it is designers' vision of balance. But part of it is players making right or wrong decisions about where to pick up the fight.

It is my opinion that you cannot create perfect balance in vacuum. I'm trying to argue however, that if players have options the better player will set up his objectives and plans so that he always fights where he has advantage. The other side can avoid engaging him perhaps, but that may mean not getting full VP.

I don't try to present that as a "I'm the better player" kind of argument (not sure why some people get that vibe). More that in general skills are hardly ever equal and being able to play the terrain is part of the skill - I feel that a well designed city board makes that part more significant, while direct matchup between models becomes function of this ability, rather than the default (i.e. if you can draw opponent into area you want to fight him in, then there will be a direct engagement you'd normally see... but you may fail at that or your opponent may force your hand, provoking a direct engagement on his or hers terms).

Also, I'm not saying abilities and advantages certain crews have are eliminated. I'm saying they are curtailed or changed. If a player believes Lure/DT is broken, nothing will satisfy him short of a cuddle. But if you are like me, thinking that these abilities need a very minor adjustment at worst, then here's the very minor adjustment we've asked for - to use Lure on such a table one has to work pretty hard to set things up. Moreover, interestingly enough, a crew with models negotiating terrain with ease (spirits, flying models) will be more exposed to Lure in such a terrain, than a traditional living or undead crew, considered to be the most outclassed by some. It is in direct contrast to the traditional gaming table, where spirits and flying models find cover easier and hide from such effects better (due to their superior movement mostly).

Or to put it in more general terms - you don't need to disable the Dreamer, Coryphée or Kirai completely. All you need is make their life a bit harder.

[Calmdown]

My pal in organizing tournaments and the guy I've played Malifaux with the most has had a Terralinx (precursor of Terraclips that makes similar kinds of boards but takes a crazy amount of work) board for a while now, so I have experience of city boards. This isn't idle speculation. I've faced Kirai on such a board and the effect is hugely in favour of Kirai no matter how you slice it, IME.

You cite the inability to charge through a wall as a con, while in reality the ability to walk through the wall is a huge plus. I don't know how much experience you've had on city tables, but I've played on them and my experiences speak very different from yours.

Kirai is massively at an advantage anywhere with lots of line of sight blocking since everything she does can be done from out of LoS, and all of her models can move through said terrain.

Try playing a game with Kirai against a good player on a table without lots of blocking terrain around, or with blocking terrain not in the places you need to be. Kirai seriously suffers in these situations as much as she benefits in the opposite.

[Q'iq'el]

Kirai is massively at an advantage anywhere with lots of line of sight blocking since everything she does can be done from out of LoS, and all of her models can move through said terrain.

Try playing a game with Kirai against a good player on a table without lots of blocking terrain around, or with blocking terrain not in the places you need to be. Kirai seriously suffers in these situations as much as she benefits in the opposite.

Which is my reasoning for providing the both in the same table and in a way that both sides have to pay at least some attention to the areas they "dislike".

[Guy in Suit]

Why not use the terrain as a balancing tool then? Why not offer people tables' date=' where the most common and boring internet builds are actually not that good? I'm thinking, especially, about interiors and Malifaux city with narrow streets and small houses, with plenty of walls, doors and rooms to hide in.[/quote']

Interesting, but how does this slow down the Dreamer at all? He simply flies or floats wherever he wants and drops his Alps/whatever right on your head. It doesn't hurt him at all and makes him even more powerful.

It does really make Lure based lists useless though, I'll give you that.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Personally, like I said I do like Q's idea, but as a Kirai player, unless I was playing a hyper competitive environment and a good player if I see a city block or indoor terrain I ask my opponent, "Are you sure that's what you want.

A good selection of building spread out over the board makes Kirai almost as good, if not better than the Dreamer. And while I agree you are going to want to mak some open areas to deny her that advantage they are going to have to be giant open areas because of Don't Blink.

Great idea to keep working on Q!

[Q'iq'el]

Interesting, but how does this slow down the Dreamer at all? He simply flies or floats wherever he wants and drops his Alps/whatever right on your head. It doesn't hurt him at all and makes him even more powerful.

Even if it doesn't slow the master down, it hinders him and his minions in some ways. Not all his minions are spirits, not all will be able to take part in combats, if there's not enough place on one side of the wall etc. The Dreamer may be a spirit, but LCB is not. His ability to walk and attack next target will be as hindered as any other physical model in the game.

[dgraz]

If you're playing a tourney...and have pre-determined terrain...and cycling players around to different tables, you don't need every table to be set up this way. Having drastically different types of terrain set-ups would make almost everyone change their lists for each table.

[Guy in Suit]

If you're playing a tourney...and have pre-determined terrain...and cycling players around to different tables, you don't need every table to be set up this way. Having drastically different types of terrain set-ups would make almost everyone change their lists for each table.

Which is why the exciting new Wild West Town terrain I just got in and whatever Rob K. has cooked up will provide more diversity than ever this time around!

I just don't see how lots of terrain doesnt help Dreamer and Kirai WAY more than it hurts.

If I was any other master up against either I'd prefer to play on an open board.

[Math Mathonwy]

Even if it doesn't slow the master down' date=' it hinders him and his minions in some ways. Not all his minions are spirits, not all will be able to take part in combats, if there's not enough place on one side of the wall etc. The Dreamer may be a spirit, but LCB is not. His ability to walk and attack next target will be as hindered as any other physical model in the game.[/quote']

Yes, he is hindered. His opponent, OTOH, is hindered more (unless his opponent is playing Kirai) so I really don't see how this fixes imbalances. Since the crew is taken after seeing the table, the Neverborn player indeed leaves his Filth list in the case and takes the Dreamer and then proceeds to win since the terrain favours the Dreamer so highly.

I dunno, I feel that I'm not grasping at all your point. Could you try to elaborate on it one more time using small words?

[Ratty]

Yes, he is hindered. His opponent, OTOH, is hindered more (unless his opponent is playing Kirai) so I really don't see how this fixes imbalances. Since the crew is taken after seeing the table, the Neverborn player indeed leaves his Filth list in the case and takes the Dreamer and then proceeds to win since the terrain favours the Dreamer so highly.

I dunno, I feel that I'm not grasping at all your point. Could you try to elaborate on it one more time using small words?

If you have a variety of tables from dense with doors to fairly open with long corridors of, you will find people varying there crew choice more over the course of a tournament than if every board has 4 3x3" pieces of terrain 8" from the edge.

[Dolomyte]

Yes, he is hindered. His opponent, OTOH, is hindered more (unless his opponent is playing Kirai) so I really don't see how this fixes imbalances. Since the crew is taken after seeing the table, the Neverborn player indeed leaves his Filth list in the case and takes the Dreamer and then proceeds to win since the terrain favours the Dreamer so highly.

I dunno, I feel that I'm not grasping at all your point. Could you try to elaborate on it one more time using small words?

He is saying in this terrain setup he is going to have enough blocking terrain and interact doors to prevent the filth list, but he is also going to have enough open terrain for shooting armies to not be completely worthless. in a 3x3 board.

I'm sure its possible. very tough, but possible.

[Buhallin]

Yay! Neverborn balance discussion achieved!!

<sigh>

[Math Mathonwy]

If you have a variety of tables from dense with doors to fairly open with long corridors of, you will find people varying there crew choice more over the course of a tournament than if every board has 4 3x3" pieces of terrain 8" from the edge.

Ah, OK, these words are small enough

Yeah, I kinda have always played that way (we have a couple of "normal" table setups, the city and a dungeon/mine) and yeah, it's a good idea to vary the terrain. Agreed.

[Dolomyte]

Yay! Neverborn balance discussion achieved!!

<sigh>

Its more of a terrain set up discussion. the initial thread was about neverborn (and some other comp restrictions) but now we are discussing kirai's power in a CQB environment.

I wish terraclips had a software where you could "build" your board online and share it with others. I think that would be awesome as a selling point, and then people could practice making boards before actually snapping their stuff into place, reducing wear and tear from experimentation.

[dgraz]

I wish terraclips had a software where you could "build" your board online and share it with others.

World Works already has that set up for their Terrainlinx product....I'm hoping/assuming that something must be in the works for Terraclips.

[Guy in Suit]

We've updated restrictions. Mostly removed them and tweaked a few others. Let us know your thoughts!

Alp Rare 3

Stitched Together 'Does Not Die' ends the models current activation. The model triggering 'Does Not Die' counts as killing this model for scenario purposes. 'Creepy Fog' is treated as terrain for the purpose of determining Line of Sight. (AKA models with Hunter can see 6" through the fog, etc.)

Lilitu - Rare 1

Jack Daw does not grant either player additional victory points

Malifaux Rats may not make (1) Interact actions

[Dolomyte]

We've updated restrictions. Mostly removed them and tweaked a few others. Let us know your thoughts!

Alp Rare 3

Stitched Together 'Does Not Die' ends the models current activation. The model triggering 'Does Not Die' counts as killing this model for scenario purposes. 'Creepy Fog' is treated as terrain for the purpose of determining Line of Sight. (AKA models with Hunter can see 6" through the fog, etc.)

Lilitu - Rare 1

Jack Daw does not grant either player additional victory points

Malifaux Rats may not make (1) Interact actions

I can dig it.

[dgraz]

Stitched Together 'Does Not Die' ends the models current activation.

Meaning if they do something that would get themselves killed? ie Gamble Your Life.

How many Alps are your guys using usually?