Necromorph Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 While I do agree that popping a half dozen bayou gremlins in and just focus-pelting everything to death is pretty decent...I just love the Lacroix so much. I'm starting to do test runs of the outcasts' avatars, and I'll likely do somer next (so far I've only done Hamelin...ewwww 30wd bleeding diesease on Snow Storm...be afraid of that mofo). I'm probably just going to run him with my Lacroix (not that I have much else). I feel like if you go for the turn 2 manifest and then just pull him along with "Oooh a girl" he can provide some great buffs, some decent summoning when he gets to combat, and just be a big tank/pain in the ass while the Lacroix set up for shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 You can cast Git Yer Bro using a Slop Hauler to summon the Gremlin? I thought you needed a normal Bayou Gremlin to target with the spell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 You can cast Git Yer Bro using a Slop Hauler to summon the Gremlin? I thought you needed a normal Bayou Gremlin to target with the spell? You do need a notmal Bayou Gremlin to cast Get your Bro, Slop Haulers (or any other non-Bayou Gremlin) wont work. Also Avatar Somer's trigger B.Y.O.G. can only summon normal Bayou Gremlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evidar Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 I was Dumb Lucks opponent for match one. Thought I would pop-in and mention a few points. First, Dom's deployment was a huge factor. I knew his intention, he was looking to camp in the corner and gremlin factory until he could score recon, but in doing so I was able to slingshot an Onryo turn one and score 6vps. He should of set up in the other corner and used his numbers to deny me. His second problem was the general snowball effect of ressers was exacerbated by the weakness of bayou gremlins, especially if they've just been summoned or gone reckless. And the end of game I had managed to summon six gaki from gremlins alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Oops. Looked like I cheated on that Slop Hauler then! Eh, I lost anyway! Ha! Will have another report from the front lines up tomorrow when I'm fully awake. Somer and Ophelia take on Avatar Zoraida!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Now, I haven't played Som'er (have never lost with Ophelia, though, including winning a tournament with her, so am not a complete Gremlin noob, mind) so I might be missing something, but is using him just for summoning a powerful strategy? For Nicodem it seems to be a bad idea to just use him to summon stuff and that's with summoning a lot better stuff than Som'er. Coupled with the cache of 0, using Som'er like that seems like a poor man's version of Nico but perhaps I'm missing something essential (entirely possible since I haven't played him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Now, I haven't played Som'er (have never lost with Ophelia, though, including winning a tournament with her, so am not a complete Gremlin noob, mind) so I might be missing something, but is using him just for summoning a powerful strategy? For Nicodem it seems to be a bad idea to just use him to summon stuff and that's with summoning a lot better stuff than Som'er. Coupled with the cache of 0, using Som'er like that seems like a poor man's version of Nico but perhaps I'm missing something essential (entirely possible since I haven't played him). Mosquitoes. Mosquitoes are a hugely powerful model, and you can only have them with Somer. If Ophelia could have them (and they somehow managed to keep Somer's spells) there would be no question that she would be the superior leader. Summoning and card draw are nice too and not to be ignored, but if they were Somer's only benefits, he would have been entirely replaced by Ophelia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted September 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Now, I haven't played Som'er (have never lost with Ophelia, though, including winning a tournament with her, so am not a complete Gremlin noob, mind) so I might be missing something, but is using him just for summoning a powerful strategy? For Nicodem it seems to be a bad idea to just use him to summon stuff and that's with summoning a lot better stuff than Som'er. Coupled with the cache of 0, using Som'er like that seems like a poor man's version of Nico but perhaps I'm missing something essential (entirely possible since I haven't played him). Nicodem has the huge downside that he isn't a Gremlin! No, in all seriousness Somer does come off as a poor man's Resser master. But his Avatar will give some nice Horde buffing benefits. Mosquitoes. Mosquitoes are a hugely powerful model, and you can only have them with Somer. If Ophelia could have them (and they somehow managed to keep Somer's spells) there would be no question that she would be the superior leader. Summoning and card draw are nice too and not to be ignored, but if they were Somer's only benefits, he would have been entirely replaced by Ophelia. This. Pretty much. Which leads me onto Game Two. It was 35ss against Zoraida. I had ... Somer Teeth Jones (3ss Cache) Rat Skeeter Ophelia Two Slop Haulers 6 Gremlins Turf War, Stake a Claim, Breakthrough He had ... Zoraida (6ss Cache) Avatar of Fate Wicked Doll 3 Sillurid Stitched Together Bad JuJu Distract, Holdout, Bodyguard Our table had a few houses and watch towers in the middle, arranged around a washing line. Scattered around these were some swamps and ruins. We flipped Diagonal deployment. My Gremlins huddled in a group in some swamps outside the settlement. Zoraida split her crew, the three Sillurid taking her right flank and everything else on the left. Now, two elements of this crews had me scared. First was Bad Juju. Last thing I wanted was sticking Somer/Ophelia out in the middle of nowhere and getting walloped. Then there was the Sillurds, with them being all quick and elusive. Due to the nature of my mission and the deployment, I reasoned that I could move up very little on the early turns and instead, focus on making dudes. The last two turns would see a triumphant mass Gremlin exodus for his side of the table. And this is kind of how the game went. Somer sat just outside the settlement making dudes. Zoraida kept making Dolls that along with the Stitch, attempting to take my left side. The Sillurid were oddily causious and hugged the terrain. His plan was to get me from two sides but he ended up getting bunched up in the process. My hand had a few decent cards at this point so I decided it'd be a shame not to unload some Pull My Fingers. Turn 3 saw the big stuff go down. Zoraida manifested and ended up doing very little, aside from moving away from the horde to keep her Bodyguard. Ophelia ran up towards the lizards, dragged Somer into position with 'It's a Girl!' and made him activate right away. Three AP later, three dead lizards. A Skeeter was sent over to deal with the mass of Wicked Dolls on the other flank (who had now been joined by Bad JuJu) and proceeded to fart them off the board. Then it was pretty much over. Zoraida continued to avoid me and all the Gremlins moved as fast as they could for the other side of the table, grabbing me a 8-2 win. What I Learned Ophelia - Yeah, she kinda helps the crew work. Just like when she leads her own crew, she fills pretty much the same role here. Although she was never needed to negate Whoops (don't think my Gremlins made a shot all game), she was very important in helping wipe out those Sillurid from the one flank. I'll continue to use her in the spam lists, as much as it pains me to see that Somer requires the other Gremlin leader to help him function better. Skeeters - Men/insects of the match. I tried out Lalo's Defensive stance trick with them and it worked a treat. One of them managed to survive a round with JuJu, allowing all the Gremlins to make good their escape. More than anything else, these things make Somer worth taking and are helping me see how he fits into my plan of running him and Ophelia as my two masters for the GT. Got another game today - Guild! Somer takes on the Austringers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) Thinking about it, I want to touch a little bit more on the Somer/Nicodem comparison. I used to play Nicodem, and you're right, using him as a single minded summoner is not the best way to go (usually). But that's in large part because he has other options. Somer really doesn't. Nicodem has the fog, which is a fantastic defensive ability for him and his crew. He can bolster them. He can cast decay. And to do these things he needs to be just behind his models, so some of his AP is also spent walking. Somer just doesn't have these options. If you look at his spells, all of them except Get Yer Bro is simply better being cast by Mosquitoes. Sooey drags pigs towards him, and Mosquitoes are far more mobile and better to position your pigs. A gremlin's luck (the one that ditches cards) forces you to suffer a number of wounds equal to the cards being discarded. And for this ability to be effective, you really want to ditch most of their hand at the start of the turn, so generally about 5 cards. That means 5 wounds. At best that's a once per game thing with Somer, but more generally it's not even that because he will be wounded due to reckless or the enemy and it's simply not worth the risk (keep in mind that if he dies the mosquitoes, which are basically the saving grace of this crew, all die with him). Pull My Finger is a fantastic spell, but it has a short range, and you really don't want the enemy in melee range of him. Now, if the enemy is already there, sure, I'll use it, but I don't attempt to bring this situation about. Also you can get some great mileage out of it by using Ooo a Girl to slingshot Somer up, companion him, and then use Pull My Finger three times. I wrote about this in Ophelia's Wiki and it seems that Dumb Luck has discovered the same thing judging by his last game. But it is a very situational trick which requires precise positioning of Somer and Ophelia and a clump of enemies in range in a position that won't leave Somer to die. So it's not an every game occurrence. And then there's the dumb luck trigger with a boomer shot which can be very damaging but, again, could be costing Somer up to 5 wounds. So, basically, two of Somer's other options are very situational things (massive gremlin's luck or boomer shots) but due to the sheer cost in wounds they are, at best, once per game tricks that had better make you win, or you're going down. In other words: not the kind of situation you should plan on putting yourself in. And the last of Somer's tricks (the Ophelia/Pull My Finger shenanigans) relies on your opponents throwing a group of models too far forwards...which opponents generally won't do against you twice. So, what do we have left? Get Yer Bro (making gremlins) and take a swig (healing gremlins and mosquitoes, both of which come into play wounded). Those two actions are going to compromise 95% of Somer's AP, in part because churning out mosquitoes really is effective, and in part because Somer just doesn't have anything better to do. Also, keep in mind, it's not just a gremlin factory: it's a mosquito factory. I generally have a gremlin or two and a single mosquito hanging back with Somer. Every time a mosquito dies I larva a new one out of a gremlin I made, which is summoning which actually nets me two cards instead of costing them. So, not only are the mosquitoes the most effective model in the list, I actually don't mind you killing them at all. Edited September 2, 2011 by Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evidar Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Helps that Som'ers summoning engine is completely independent of the enemy's crew, unlike most resser lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Helps that Som'ers summoning engine is completely independent of the enemy's crew, unlike most resser lists. Eh. Most of the time when I played Nicodem I found it best to just plan as if I was going to do my summoning independently. Even if the enemy doesn't drop corpses, your own crew does. And Mortimer can create them. And in a way you need to wait for your own models to die with either list. The best model a gremlin crew can summon is a mosquito. But you can only have four in play, so getting more revolves around your opponent killing them. And a Nicodem crew relies on corpse counters which, with the exception of Mortimer, relies on your models dying. Honestly, I've heard a lot of complaining on these forums (not from you, mind you, so what I'm about to say isn't directed at you) that Ressers need corpse counters to summon and there are so many other crews now which don't drop counters. Which is true. But summoning also requires specific cards and because your own crew drops corpse counters, I always found that the cards needed to cast the spell were always the limiting factor in that equation, not the counters. So it's sort of a moot point. That said, Somer needs any card of 11 or higher to summon a gremlin (13 in the deck) and Nicodem needs any Crow of 9 or higher (6 in the deck) so I would still agree with the basis of your point: the resources Somer requires to Summon are more numerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evidar Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Oh I know, I'm a resser player myself and I think alot of the moaning is unfounded, what I'm mainly referring to is the fact that Som'er can create alot of models on the board without any interaction with the enemy at all, which is incredibly useful in some matches. Let's take the first match, had dumb and lucky deployed onto my objective he should of completely locked me out of 6VPs by spamming bayou gremlins and there's very little I could of done to stop him. No last rites, no anti-counter shenanigans. Short of killing som'er it's a very hard trick to stop. I'm not arguing that hes the sixth resser or anything but when it comes to simply making dudes Som'er is right up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted September 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Alrighty, more games! We used the same board for both games. It had a few ruins and trees scattered here and there, along with a temple in the middle. For the first game, I had ... Somer Teeth Jones 2SS Malifaux Rat Skeeter Pigapult Pere Ravage Ophelia LaCroix 4 Bayou Gremlins Line in the Sand, Eye for an Eye, Frame for Murder (Unnanounced) He had ... Lady Justice 7SS Lucius Guardian Judge 2 Death Marshalls Slaughter, Assassinate, Raid I deployed behind a walled graveyard in my deployment zone, whilst he hid behind the temple. Okay, I know what you're thinking. He's taking a Pigapult without pigs or a Taxidermist. Well, here was my trail of thought. I wanted to try out flinging Pere at them, have him blow up Turn One and take him with me. I could then use the Pult to place the Gremlins onto the dynamite to turn it on. I would also grab my Framed for Murder gremlin and place him infront of Justice to hit. All I have to do is pass an uncheatable Df11 duel. Easy, right? Out of the seven Gremlins that went in the Pult, only one survived the journey (he was neither Pere or my Framed for Murder guy). This pretty much summed up the game. The Guild managed to roll up over me with very little resistance. What I Learnt Pigapult: Far too random to be used as I intended. Whilst it was just a patch of horrid luck, I'm not sure if I'd want to take the risk of it fouling up when I need something to happen (i.e. dropping Pere into position, delivering that Gremlin for my scheme). Even with Pere, his threat range when dragging him along with Ophelia is just a tiny bit shorter. List Selection and the Mission: Looking back on it, I think I may have been better off taking a list similar to what I had in the game versus Zoraida and just sent out Gremlins one by one to sort out the dynamite, under the covering fire from Ophelia and the others. Will post about the game vs Hoffman after work tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Also, keep in mind, it's not just a gremlin factory: it's a mosquito factory. I generally have a gremlin or two and a single mosquito hanging back with Somer. Every time a mosquito dies I larva a new one out of a gremlin I made, which is summoning which actually nets me two cards instead of costing them. So, not only are the mosquitoes the most effective model in the list, I actually don't mind you killing them at all. And Piglets, dont forget the piglets off his melee trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoyled Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Does the piglet melee trigger even come into play much. I guess if youve got the pig focused set up, hog whisperer and skeeters for soey etc. It doesnt seem worth it to whack a perfectly good shooting gremlin otherwise, and somer shouldnt be doing it to enemies if at all possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Does the piglet melee trigger even come into play much. I guess if youve got the pig focused set up, hog whisperer and skeeters for soey etc. It doesnt seem worth it to whack a perfectly good shooting gremlin otherwise, and somer shouldnt be doing it to enemies if at all possible. I use the Pig Boomerang quite a lot, so ya it is effective for replenshing my pig squadrons mid game (after combat losses from anti aircraft fire). Also I have had a lot of success with Somer using the trigger on enemy models (especially constructs). This is how I stumbled upon Ramos' secret fuel for all his arachnids... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoyled Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Ahh I havent had much success with the boomerang so far. Then agian I havent gotten to use it with skeeters yet. Hopefully my FLGS got them in today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannibalBob Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Out of the seven Gremlins that went in the Pult, only one survived the journey (he was neither Pere or my Framed for Murder guy). This pretty much summed up the game. The Guild managed to roll up over me with very little resistance. Hahahahaha! That is absolutely glorious! I love it, and I love armies like this. You have to just laugh at stuff that kills your own guys - especially when it is from flinging them to their death via catapult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted September 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Hahahahaha! That is absolutely glorious! I love it, and I love armies like this. You have to just laugh at stuff that kills your own guys - especially when it is from flinging them to their death via catapult. Yeah, I feel better now. Have a game versus Lucius tomorrow, so I'll be taking it for a run again tomorrow. As for the Pig issue, I believe Lalo said it best. They're a trap. Their damage is just a slight better than a Boomstick and has a lot less range. Their movement shennigans are fun, but their damage ain't stellar. If they had Sigificant all the time, they'd be ace. Second game! I took ... Somer Teeth Jones 3ss Cache Rat Skeeter Rami Slop Hauler Ophelia 4 Gremlins Slaughter, Kill Protegee, Holdout Hoffman 6ss Cache Ryle Attendant Guardian Hunter Peacekeeper Supply Wagon, Machine Spirit, Bodyguard We played on the same board as before, this time more out into the middle of the board. Normal Somer shennigans happened (Rat passes, Skeeter makes another, Somer gets friends). As I ended up with Slaughter, I decided that it'd be worth taking Rami (pretty obvious why) despite the list looking more and more like an Ophelia list. The Peacekeeper dragged itself behind a temple, taking Hoffman with him. Rami managed to pop the Peacekeeper with ease, getting healed back up by a combo of Slop Hauler/Take a Swig swiftly. I had this horrid image of the Peacekeeper running up and having Hoffman dropping pulses all over my grouped up crew. Most of his crew pottered around the Wagon which managed to reach the middle unharmed. The Hunter walked around the side, not really doing much. Hoffman by Turn Four ended up in the middle of my crew. Rather than picking away at the Guardian (who was now on about four wounds), what I should have done was move back abit. Hoffman proceeded to nuke about four Gremlins off the board but most of his stuff was wounded enough that Ophelia/Somer could probs break them apart. Unfortunately, luck went with the Hoffman player who proceeded to Machine Puppet Ophelia up (thus getting his Machine Spirit scheme). I did however, manage to blow his head off Somer's Boomer. So not all bad. By then, it was all over. The Slop Hauler managed to grab me Holdout by Spinning Around Real Fast and pushing Ryle away. 6-4 win to Hoffman. I think my bad luck was a bother here. Losing most of my guys was annoying, but Ophelia could have grabbed Hoffman, the Guardian and the Hunter pretty quick. It was one of those game deciding turns. What I Learnt When to Move over Shooting - Basically, don't stand infront of a guy chucking out pulses just to get a few wounds on a guy. Gremlins are quick enough to spend a turn backing up to survive. Hitting Power - This might just be because I'm more familar with Ophelia and the LaCroix, but this last game really hit it hope for me. Ophelia and Rami helped to remove problems that the Skeeters etc would struggle with. Without them, the Gremlins lack any real stopping power. Somer in General - This list was the closest to what I take with Ophelia. After reading Lalo's post on what Somer can do, it made me mull over his place in a Gremlin list. He is handy for utility (healing up Rami just that little bit more was handy), but that is the thing. His tricks (summoning, discarding the enemy's hand etc) are either hard to pull off (either through the value of cards needed or the work needed to set things up) or very situational (Gremlin's Luck). Making the pieces fall together and work in a Somer list is much more work than an Ophelia crew. Even with the summoning, I don't think I have gotten many more guys than my Ophelia lists. He is a one trick Gremlin like Ophelia. But I'm not sure if his tricks are as good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 The reason I fear a Somer and Ophelia pairing more than Ophelia by herself? Activation control. Somer's trick might not be "as good as Ophelia's" but having him in the game making skeeters and gremlins every turn gives more opportunity for the Hard hitters in the list to go when they want to. I play Kirai a good deal and it was very disconcerting the first time I went up against a Somer/Ophelia list. I'm not used to being out-activated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Yeah, I feel better now. Have a game versus Lucius tomorrow, so I'll be taking it for a run again tomorrow. Beware the Guild Austringers (priortiy one for execution) benefitting from the Drill Sergeants Shooting Range and paired with Lucious Advanced Training and Issue Command. This is pretty much auto-death to three Gremlins within 12 (regardless of LOS or Cover). As for the Pig issue, I believe Lalo said it best. They're a trap. Their damage is just a slight better than a Boomstick and has a lot less range. Their movement shennigans are fun, but their damage ain't stellar. If they had Sigificant all the time, they'd be ace. A well run Pig Boomerang allows them to strike from cover at Rg 20 (and if benefitting from Never Happen ignoring severe movement penalties), up to (3) times per piglet (when benefitting from Set'er off for 1 Wd), at Dg 2/3/4 (thanks to Nibble) and a (because of Swine Dashes) and then return to cover. This is in addition to the piglets ability to strike at deeper often hidden targets with well placed swine dash pushes. Skeeters are the main tool that allows the control. Slop Haulers and Gremlin Taxedermist/ Stuffed Piglets only add to the awesomeness. The Warpig also has some utility with this tactic because of his large size blocking undesirable targets that are closer then the ones you really want to target. The Gunline (without Ophelia) is effective with Som'er but doesn't generate near the number of attacks the Pig Boomerang does (because of the need to constantly Focus the Gremlins Boomstick Strikes). Definately agree with the Significant issue (if it was 1 AP instead of All it would be a lot more useful). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoyled Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 The more I look at pigs the more I think we need a few more pig releases to make a less gremlin focused list really pop. A bit more suvivalbility and damage maybe in a medium based pig, or a buffer hog giving hard to wound out to piglets and warhogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Made a homebrew Sow model for exactly this purpose (course it also had some features of the Spawn Mother from Twisting Fates). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted September 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Home brew rules? Could I request a looksie? Significant Piglets would be the best objective grabbers. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Somer in General - This list was the closest to what I take with Ophelia. After reading Lalo's post on what Somer can do, it made me mull over his place in a Gremlin list. He is handy for utility (healing up Rami just that little bit more was handy), but that is the thing. His tricks (summoning, discarding the enemy's hand etc) are either hard to pull off (either through the value of cards needed or the work needed to set things up) or very situational (Gremlin's Luck). Making the pieces fall together and work in a Somer list is much more work than an Ophelia crew. Even with the summoning, I don't think I have gotten many more guys than my Ophelia lists. He is a one trick Gremlin like Ophelia. But I'm not sure if his tricks are as good. It's not best to compare Somer to Ophelia. Because Somer still has Ophelia. It's best to compare Somer and one mosquito to 14 soul stones. Because if you were to drop him and the skeeter, you'd have an Ophelia list with just that - 14 more stones to spend. I also probably shouldn't mention this, but two mosquitoes can activate infinitely and get infinite movement. Technically. *cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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