Pandora Woes

[sephiroa]

nekima can be killed very easy, and lilitu, she gets 2wd in the resolve effect phase, so if you can damage her in turn 2 with 3 damage, she is dead,

try to ingore dora, (easier said then done,) but she has her weaknesses, blasts, pulses, she cannot use her martyr for that, ever tried to take the lure agains them? belles, and lure nekima, or lilitu towards you

[Math Mathonwy]

nekima can be killed very easy, and lilitu, she gets 2wd in the resolve effect phase, so if you can damage her in turn 2 with 3 damage, she is dead,

I believe the idea to grow a Lelu.

[Dolomyte]

It's a pulse, unfortunately. I hate to say this, but maybe take Jack Daw. Run him up there and drop Severed Ties, that will stop the Lure chain, or at least give you a better chance to defend against it. Heart Stopper can take out Nekima, especially when she can't cheat fate!

In this list the Librarian adds a + to cast flips, and in reality you control hand would have only helped keep the chain going for a while. so jack daw would not do much to prevent anything.

Plus if your spending cards to try and save your other models, you will be in a hand weak position and risk him getting killed by nekima, the librarian, or pandora.

Edit - Plus Plus if your using jack daw within six inches of nekima and the girls his wp will be lowered by two, I am pretty sure the oldest of magics does not prevent him taking wounds from pandora's emotional trauma. I tried to search for it in the rules questions but could not find it. I know that one was tossed around for a while. so you would need to discard to keep him alive, I think.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Mike3838]

Nah Dolomyte I checked this a while back. Emotional Trauma isn't a spell so isnt considered magical damage, so Jack ignores it.

Pretty much Pandora's only offense against Jack is Mental Anguish.

Mike

[Obeisance]

This is actually a really interesting thread for me, as a McMourning player. I have my first Malifaux tournament on Sunday and there's like 2-3 Pandora players.

So long story short- I should avoid going after anything that needs WP duels, including Pandora, and take out her support units.

Anything else I need to know?

[emissary]

Mike is correct, emotional trauma doesn't affect Jacky Daw. Not magical or a spell.

You know, if this is indeed part of the design strategy for Malifaux, I'd be perfectly content not investing another dime in it.

I don't think it's much different then other wargames. You'll always have good matchups and bad. It's just the difference here is that it's encouraged to pick your list after you find out what faction your opponent is using. Our group doesn't doesn't list build in general so it's not that big of a deal.

All that being said, I don't think it's an auto-lose for McMourning to fight Pandora, it's just more of an uphill battle for him then the other masters due to his WP5. That being said, he does have a few things he can do against this list that you shouldn't forget.

1) First, are you playing with enough terrain? Remember the game is meant to be played with roughly 2-3ish pieces per square foot. If you're playing on the typical 40k/WM board of a few pieces total, the Nekky-Lure list will have a field day as LoS isn't broken easily.

2) If McMourning can go first, he can shut down Nekima's part pretty easily. Don't forget about his (1) Wracked with Pain spell. It has a 12" range (so can be done outside Nek's beauty aura) and will stop her +masks crap as well as damaging her a bit. Given that you have a higher CA then her WP and you can use soulstones and she can't, you shouldn't have too much of a problem nailing her if you can go first.

3) McMourning's speed will help as well. Before he can activate the Lilitu, he's going to need to activate Neks/Librarian for their buffs. This will give you time to get to them with your MV5, easy access to fast (just attack one of your models on the first turn for the free body part, then use your (0) to heal them back) and scalpel slinging if you really need. The problem you'll have is that WP12 dual to make if you want to target them and you'll be at -2 WP if you're close to Neks. Hence you'll want to limit the number of times you want to hit them. One big hit is better then trying for several small ones.

This will require a bit in your hand. One thing you can go for is try to get up on them with your speed/scalpel slinging and hit them with a boosted Dissection. The idea is to get the spell total into the range where you don't have a negative to the damage flip. Then when you flip, cheat a severe and do the 10 damage. This will off the Lilitu in one hit or severely damage Nekima (or kill her if you damaged her via Wracked with Pain, Scalpel Slinging or Master Surgeon). You'll have to blow through a few soulstones for boosts here and may have to blow a few for the WP12 dual, but is worth it to take out these parts of their chain (starting with 6 ss minimum doesn't hurt either).

Other things:

1) I do agree that Jack Daw is a decent counter. Don't feel bad about using him if your opponent is pulling this crap on you.

2) In addition to Jack, The Hanged aren't bad against this list either. They can move up the table behind the terrain (hence no LoS) for Lure. Their Terror/Last Words/Horrible End coupled with Jack's Aura may get you to run off some of their models. Another great piece for them is the (1) Whisper from Beyond. It will nail Neks for a bunch of damage or ensure that the Lilitu will die that turn if the Lelu isn't on the table. Not being able to heal again after you take all that damage is fairly horrific on a list that relies on it through Nekima/Lilitu/Librarian

3) Lastly, Bete Noire isn't terrible either. Nekima will be close to the Lilitu. So give them something simple to off, like a canine remains, then pop out Bete and go for a paralyze run on Nekima.

[emissary]

This is actually a really interesting thread for me, as a McMourning player. I have my first Malifaux tournament on Sunday and there's like 2-3 Pandora players.

So long story short- I should avoid going after anything that needs WP duels, including Pandora, and take out her support units.

Anything else I need to know?

Yeah, going after her support units is generally a good idea. She can't do a ton to you on her own. She's mainly there to nickel and dime you and to enhance her own units. Her power gets reduced as her crew is reduced. Taking out the sorrows early usually helps as well. I've found lure to help pull them off what they're linked to helps.

Best thing is to only do the WP duals when it's necessary but to shrug off the fact that she's going to get some small stuff in. Remember you have several things like the Flesh Constructs and the Belles that have a ton of wounds to suck up the emotional trauma hits. In a typical list she won't have much that can attack you directly. Lastly, don't forget that McM can easily heal the stuff around him with a (0) action and heals himself when he attacks stuff. It can undo a lot of those nickel and dime wounds.

Don't forget your Wracked with Pain spell. It's a great spell that I don't think people talk about enough. Several models have (0) spells that are critical to what they're trying to do and if you shut it off (plus getting a body part plus doing 2 wounds) can give them a large setback. Pandora without incite/pacify has her damage/movement options severely limited. Dopplegangers without mimic are fairly useless. It has a long range, you can cast it easily and have a lot of ss to add to your casting total. If used at a critical time it can turn the tide.

[Jimp]

i've seen pandora by herself take out a nearly fully healthy snowstorm, 2x ice gamin, silent one, and most of rasputina. This was after the rasputina player (dolomyte) wiped out the filth list only losing a single gamin.

Pandora alone is probably more dangerous then any other model out there.

[Calmdown]

i've seen pandora by herself take out a nearly fully healthy snowstorm, 2x ice gamin, silent one, and most of rasputina. This was after the rasputina player (dolomyte) wiped out the filth list only losing a single gamin.

Pandora alone is probably more dangerous then any other model out there.

The problem with Pandora is, you can only neuter her by running away from her. Rasputina doesnt have that capability.

Honestly though killing Pandora isnt that hard to kill as long as you have soulstone advantage and luck isnt totally off your side. She only takes a couple of solid hits to kill, its just that you have to invest a lot into those hits which you cant always do early game for fear of being overwhelmed by the retaliation.

She is definitely one of the most dangerous models around though. No doubt.

[kanhead]

I agree, Pandora without her minions can't do a lot. Focus on the sorrows and she'll struggle.

Other than that, spread out a little. If she gets a high crow she'll SS a blast that triggers auto fallback. It's the one reason she can win games solo and will really mess with you completing your strategy/schemes.

[ravenborne]

Lots of good suggestions. A few things I will throw into the mix: "Rancid Transplant". Little used but can be brutal in this matchup. And take a lot of soulstones and use lots of dogs for making Frankies. Frankies love Pandora.

Bette works well, or even Killjoy to beat on Nikema.

[Cornelious1424]

I guess using Jack against that list isn't that bad. My lgs just has such a "Wow, you're using Jack...?" approach that I started my initial post with, "I hate to say it...". If people in my group were running that I'd deff roll Jack to shut them up.

Neverborn are really good, but I still think every faction can manage against any faction. I have personally experience against this as a Gremlin player playing against Guild. I have learned how to counter Austringers, even though they decimate Gremlins, but this isn't the thread to discuss this. Is this your only opponent? Why consider playing them if this is the list time and time again?

[Mike3838]

Kanhead,

Sounds like your opponent might be playing this wrong. Pandora cannot affect multiple models under the blast with her trigger and make them all flee. The trigger only affects the original target.

Clarified here: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22272

Mike

[kanhead]

Thanks mike, I'll take that with me next time!

Although the trigger is still enough to make her outrageous even solo.

[Satyrwyld]

(Caution: Answers in this post may be directed at persons beyond those quoted directly)

You know, if this is indeed part of the design strategy for Malifaux, I'd be perfectly content not investing another dime in it.

Why? Why should every master be equally good against every threat, and equally competent at every strategy? The broad range of differences is one of the things that makes Malifaux my favorite minis game - it allows very specialized masters with very synergized minions that you're not punished for taking in a scenario that they're not good at. You do not play "Ramos," you play "Arcanists." Ramos doesn't NEED to be fast for movement based objectives; he has Colette and Marcus for that. Similarly, McM doesn't need to be good against Neverborn; if you're concerned about Neverborn, you take a master who is.

Another example: I hear a lot about how Ressers can't take Molly as a master. Why does she have to be taken as a master? Where does it say that all Henchmen must follow the same ecological niche within their faction? Molly's 9 soulstones, 11 if she has a totem. Is she really bringing less to the table than Bete Noir or Jack Daw?

The biggest problem I see among Malifaux players is that they're still stuck in other games' mentalities of "kill em all" when that's seldom the point. A couple months back, I took a friend who'd played all of two games, both times using Lady Justice, to a tourney. I loaned him my Resser models and we spent the night before going over what masters and minions were suited for what task. He was the only novice, and the only participant who'd never played in a tournament before. Focused on objectives instead of killing, he placed fourth of eight, including two Neverborn players, a full-spectrum Guild player, and a Perdita-only player (first place went to the Arcanists, if you care, so none of these "power lists" won).

The whole argument reminds me of an animation where two friends are sitting down to play a fighting game, and the less skilled player has choice after choice shot down. His favorite characters aren't competitive enough, his favorite battlefield is too unpredictable, item spawns unbalance the game. They wind up having two gray squares battle each other on a featureless plain, and then complain that the game isn't as fun as they remember it.

The moral of the rant: understanding that some models are better at certain things than other models, and yes, this includes masters too, is the steepest part of the Malifaux learning curve. Otherwise we might as well go all the way and eliminate all masters save one, and give them only one type of minion, and then nothing can be unbalanced ever.

[Math Mathonwy]

Why? Why should every master be equally good against every threat, and equally competent at every strategy? The broad range of differences is one of the things that makes Malifaux my favorite minis game - it allows very specialized masters with very synergized minions that you're not punished for taking in a scenario that they're not good at. You do not play "Ramos," you play "Arcanists." Ramos doesn't NEED to be fast for movement based objectives; he has Colette and Marcus for that. Similarly, McM doesn't need to be good against Neverborn; if you're concerned about Neverborn, you take a master who is.

A random question: when would you take McM? Which opposing faction and which strategy would mean that McM would be better than any of the other three Resser Masters?