Pandora Woes

[ProdigalPunk]

I played against a Pandora List the other day with McM, and I know he was a bad match-up to begin with, but with our relatively slow speed and lack of shooting, I am not sure how I am suppose to combat this 18' Bubble of Death.

The list was Pandora, two sorrows, Nekima, Lulitu, and the Librarian. Once anything got into Lulitu's threat range it was basically taking lure tests with the auto recast. Between the occasional minus to WP flips from Pandora, the plus flip that the Librarian gives to Lulitu's casting flip and the -2 Wp once I am within 6 inches of Nekima, it was a nightmare (no pun intended). The damage from the sorrows and Pandora ate me alive.

Any thoughts or success against this kind of list?

Edit: Ignore the typo in the title please

[Jonas Albrecht]

Was your plan to take Pnadora head on? What was your Strategy?

[ProdigalPunk]

Was your plan to take Pnadora head on? What was your Strategy?

We flipped shared slaughter, so I had little choice but to take her head on. I tried to use as much terrain as possible, but most of the stuff on our board does not block line of sight, mostly just provides cover. The problem was if I got into the open, I pretty much had to reach her crew or end up dead. Anything big could be widdled down by constant lures, and anything small Nekima does not have a lot of trouble with.

Edit: Bete might not be such a bad option here now that I think about it.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Edit: Bete might not be such a bad option here now that I think about it.

Indeed. Get something close in there and then pop out a Bete and then just slaughter the living hell out of Nekima. With a little luck, you'll be able to pull off Slit Jugular when they've used too much of their control hand for Lure.

[Buhallin]

Bete pops out to do bad things to Lilitu and Nekima when they Lure something in. Flesh Golems are Immune to Influence. A Hanged can essentially end the game for Pandora if you can land a Horrifying. McMourning has a 16" threat range via Scalpel Slingin', with one AP left. Anything with Slow to Die that can do bad things to Lilitu or Nekima when they go - Crooked Men look like a decent option if you can stash a good :crows away to trigger Bury. The much-maligned Nurse can Painkiller whatever you decide to hang out there for Lilitu to Lure.

Not saying any of it is automatic or easy, but there are plenty of tricks available.

[Calmdown]

Immune to Influence stuff works too, bizarrely. They cant lure it until its within 12" of Pandora, and at that points its ready to charge in and beat face. I used to do it with a Peacekeeper and it can also be done with a Dead Rider. If it has a Grave Spirit attached, it should live through the Luretrain, just keep it at 9 Wds to start. Von Schill also works well as bait.

Always make sure you outactivate them (not hard against this list) so that if whatever they Lure in survives (which it can if you do it right), it is ready to blow all its AP on hurting stuff.

If you have to fight Pandora, always ignore her (and anything with a Wp duel defence like Lilitu) and get rid of everything else. She's always scary but a lot less scary when she has no mates around, and most stuff she takes tends to be easy to kill.

Its the Stitched-Pandora lists that you need to worry about....

[ProdigalPunk]

Bete pops out to do bad things to Lilitu and Nekima when they Lure something in. Flesh Golems are Immune to Influence. A Hanged can essentially end the game for Pandora if you can land a Horrifying. McMourning has a 16" threat range via Scalpel Slingin', with one AP left. Anything with Slow to Die that can do bad things to Lilitu or Nekima when they go - Crooked Men look like a decent option if you can stash a good :crows away to trigger Bury. The much-maligned Nurse can Painkiller whatever you decide to hang out there for Lilitu to Lure.

Not saying any of it is automatic or easy, but there are plenty of tricks available.

I agree that Bete is close to being my best option. The problem is most stuff dies outside of her threat range, so she would have to make a move action then she only gets one attack. This is both true for Lulitu (who is a nightmare so does not need to worry about Paralysis) and Nekima who has a three inch melee, but can at least still be paralyzed. The Hanged is nice too, but his threat range is only about 7" which falls short of the 18 inch range Lulitu has. I'll throw one in though to see what happens. My concern is less with Pandora though and more with Lulitu, Pandora was more just icing on the cake. The slow to die things tend to have the same problem as Bete in the last action tends to be wasted, although Crooked Men would still be good. I never thought of nurses though, hopefully my opponent will not figure out he can just ignore the drugged up models and they only have one activation to do anything before they die and stupidly lure them.

[Jonas Albrecht]

For closing in on your target, field some Necropunks. Use their Slow to Die action to put Bete right where they don't want her.

[ProdigalPunk]

For closing in on your target, field some Necropunks. Use their Slow to Die action to put Bete right where they don't want her.

Think I should go after the Sorrows? I feel like if I go after anyone else could be looking needing a Wp->12 flip to target pretty much anyone else, and at -2 I need a 9+ or I am looking at 3 Wds. Probably best to go after the sorrows then Lulitu, so if I fail I will not be taking so much damage.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Think I should go after the Sorrows? I feel like if I go after anyone else could be looking needing a Wp->12 flip to target pretty much anyone else, and at -2 I need a 9+ or I am looking at 3 Wds. Probably best to go after the sorrows then Lulitu, so if I fail I will not be taking so much damage.

With Bete? Kill Nekima.

[Buhallin]

I never thought of nurses though, hopefully my opponent will not figure out he can just ignore the drugged up models and they only have one activation to do anything before they die and stupidly lure them.

Can't really rely on enemy stupidity, at least not consistently

But you should be able to use it as an option once you're close enough to strike. Move up under cover, then Painkiller when you have to expose them (hopefully with them in position to strike).

A pair of Flesh Constructs would make a great screen. Take one and upgrade a Canine to another. That gives you 100mm worth of can't-be-lured to move up behind.

[Dolomyte]

Can't really rely on enemy stupidity, at least not consistently

But you should be able to use it as an option once you're close enough to strike. Move up under cover, then Painkiller when you have to expose them (hopefully with them in position to strike).

A pair of Flesh Constructs would make a great screen. Take one and upgrade a Canine to another. That gives you 100mm worth of can't-be-lured to move up behind.

If you can't rely on enemy stupidity. Why suggest it.

[Buhallin]

If you can't rely on enemy stupidity. Why suggest it.

Hrm. Tough question - you might have really caught me if I'd suggested it!

Painkillers basically makes a model immune to the Lure bomb for a turn, because there's no point in it. If you position it right it allows you an opportunity to expose a model to Lilitu while setting up the strike - when normally doing so would mean you get Lured and killed. Especially if you ABBA the activations, and cover it with Painkillers and then stack on Stimulant or Speed, or even both.

None of that relies on enemy stupidity.

[Fading Memory]

Add a nurse and dogs to the starting line up. This way you can have more models to out activate your opponent. Add the movement and unkillable effects to the dog with the nurse. Send the dog up to lilitu or nekima, and at the end if its activation Bete pops out. Sense you have more models than your opponent, you don't have to worry about Bete getting beat up.

[emissary]

If you really just want to make a screen for the lure bomb, just used drowned. They can't be pushed by lure and if they target your models behind them just set it up so they run it the drowned and stop.

[Buhallin]

If you really just want to make a screen for the lure bomb, just used drowned. They can't be pushed by lure and if they target your models behind them just set it up so they run it the drowned and stop.

This won't quite work. Since Lure is 'towards' instead of 'directly towards' the Lured target will go around obstructions.

[Dolomyte]

This won't quite work. Since Lure is 'towards' instead of 'directly towards' the Lured target will go around obstructions.

Are the drowned Ht 1 or 2, they could screen stuff.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Are the drowned Ht 1 or 2, they could screen stuff.

Ht 2.

[kanhead]

Drowned could be a winner. I must admit my problems have always come with pandora towing a ton of sorrows up and not some much nekima/lelitu.

Crooked men have helped me in the past by spamming blast templates across the sorrows and Pandora.

Also keep in mind that nekima is one hell of a point sink and from my memory of her stats McM can easily catch and kill her.

Lelitu is an interesting one, Bete will really help but you could also try a convict gunslinger. I've been playing around with desperate mercs too and they might be effective (although the Wp duel is a problem as is the low Wd count)

[Math Mathonwy]

If I have understood correctly, you aren't supposed to win with McM against Pandora and everything is working as intended. You shouldn't choose McM when knowing that you face Neverborn (since you might be facing Pandora). It's a bit like in other games making a really stupid move at the beginning except that in Malifaux that "move" is done well before the game begins. It's a bit like asking help in WHFB for a situation where you deployed your whole army backwards or something.

So my idea for this match-up is simply "don't". I'm actually hard-pressed to imagine a strategy and match-up where taking McM instead of one of the other three Resser Masters would be a good idea but this game is balanced on the faction level so it's all good.

But OK, let's say that you've made the huge blunder of taking McM.

Since Nekima can't companion the Lilitu, you have a chance to react before the lure chain hits. Is Nekima's ability an aura or a pulse? I don't have the book at hand currently, but I seem to recall it being an aura? Which would allow you to lure one component off position, right? This defaults to my belief that Belles are the Resser answer to almost all specific problem scenarios, but it would be worth a shot I think. All in all, Pandora has lots of things going on that need somewhat exact positioning and Belles are really good in messing that up.

[Jonas Albrecht]

So my idea for this match-up is simply "don't". I'm actually hard-pressed to imagine a strategy and match-up where taking McM instead of one of the other three Resser Masters would be a good idea but this game is balanced on the faction level so it's all good.

You know, if this is indeed part of the design strategy for Malifaux, I'd be perfectly content not investing another dime in it.

[Cornelious1424]

Since Nekima can't companion the Lilitu, you have a chance to react before the lure chain hits. Is Nekima's ability an aura or a pulse? I don't have the book at hand currently, but I seem to recall it being an aura? Which would allow you to lure one component off position, right? This defaults to my belief that Belles are the Resser answer to almost all specific problem scenarios, but it would be worth a shot I think. All in all, Pandora has lots of things going on that need somewhat exact positioning and Belles are really good in messing that up.

It's a pulse, unfortunately. I hate to say this, but maybe take Jack Daw. Run him up there and drop Severed Ties, that will stop the Lure chain, or at least give you a better chance to defend against it. Heart Stopper can take out Nekima, especially when she can't cheat fate!

[ProdigalPunk]

Are the drowned Ht 1 or 2, they could screen stuff.

Does not matter, they are spirits so they do not block line of sight.

[magicpockets]

It's a pulse, unfortunately. I hate to say this, but maybe take Jack Daw. Run him up there and drop Severed Ties, that will stop the Lure chain, or at least give you a better chance to defend against it. Heart Stopper can take out Nekima, especially when she can't cheat fate!

Jackdaw is your friend, esp if you can shut down pandora. If you need to, take a student of conflict to give him (+1) Fast to get him in her face. And remember she as no way of damaging him, just watch out for crows in her casting flips.

Alt, shut down Lilitu in melee and be ready to burn a few cards.

Edited August 26, 2011 by magicpockets

[Calmdown]

You know, if this is indeed part of the design strategy for Malifaux, I'd be perfectly content not investing another dime in it.

Or just do what I did; order Neverborn and join part of the game's slow decline into 90% of people playing Neverborn and Outcasts.

Auto loss games (which Pandora is for a lot of lists) are not fun for anyone. But apparently everyone tells me that its the playing not the winning that they get fun out of, so I'm going to exclusively play filthy dirty power lists and see how long their opinions hold true.

As for playing vs Pandora, if you want to beat her play Kirai - it's actually a fairly easy game. Dump 2 Shikome and Ikiryo into stuff, and just resummon/heal as necessary as Pandora lists often struggle to kill things in one turn. If they run Nekima, even better; she's squishy as hell and is an easy 13 point kill. Once her support is dead, either re-prey and kill her or just ignore her and go complete objectives. I've never lost to Pandora with Kirai yet.

If you want to play McMourning, I'd go with stuff like Dead Rider/Grave Spirit as I mentioned earlier or Von Schill. Stuff that hits hard and is tough to take out in one turn and/or has some defences against Wp attacks, and then try to get rid of her support asap. But it will be an uphill struggle, no doubt.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Calmdown