Neverborn Rules Discussion

[Justin]

So, the Ophelia thing totally works.

[Math Mathonwy]

Arguably' date=' the Book 1 Neverborn models were the most specialised of the lot. While many Arcanist, Guild and Ressurectionist masters exchanged their minions freely, Lilith has been locked into Nephilim crew with Waldgeist as an option, Pandora was all into Woes and only Zoraida had some hiring freedom.[/quote']

Arcanists were about the same. Outcasts were even more rigid. Only Ressers and Guild had wide interoperability. Book 2 came up with Stitcheds, Insidious and Lelu and Lilitu - all top tier models that work with all NB masters.

But the point was that Malifaux seems to be operating quite highly on the idea that there are "proper" places for many of the models and using them outside of their designated Master will seem them performing under their full capabilities. Which IMO is a far better idea than making them work very well for all and broken-good for one Master, which would be the other possibility.

So if Alps are too good under the Dreamer, they should be cuddled no matter if that makes them a sub-par choice for other Masters as that is how all the other highly synergistic models work. Getting the full use out of Coppelius under Hoffman isn't as easy as under Dreamer but it isn't supposed to be.

[Math Mathonwy]

So, the Ophelia thing totally works.

:(

[Justin]

:(

Well, if you know it's coming (in other words, if you're playing against ophelia with a pigapault in deliver a message) all you have to do is start your master in the back of your deployment zone, and the model will be out of range.

[Q'iq'el]

So if Alps are too good under the Dreamer, they should be cuddled no matter if that makes them a sub-par choice for other Masters as that is how all the other highly synergistic models work. Getting the full use out of Coppelius under Hoffman isn't as easy as under Dreamer but it isn't supposed to be.

That I can partially agree with, I think, though there are thresholds to be kept in mind. If a change is merely making them a less obvious choice, then it probably is a good change (but are they obvious choice for other masters? Are Stitched an obvious choice model?).

If the change means they disappear forever from the tables, then it clearly isn't a good change.

The relative power level of entire crew comes into play here too - there are multiple crews available now for Pandora and Dreamer, some flexibility for Zoraida (esp. the new combination with Collodi) and more or less several variants of Nephilim crew for Lilith (which seems the most specialised). If one of the variants starts to perform less efficiently, it will simply disappear.

And that's a lot to ask for, when quite a few players are not even convinced there's a problem with NB (and there's clearly no objective data to swing the argument either way). I just remember how Pandora's mechanics were thrown off the balance by a relatively small change to link and how Wyrd had to take a step back with it.

Back then I myself was in a camp believing Sorrows moving for free for entire game was too good and the lesson I learned is that you can't simply claim something is too good because others don't get it or because it is a massive cut in AP cost or something. There's wider context to it and sometimes getting an ability for free is the raison d'être of a minion. Without free walks Sorrows become instantly unusable. Would Lilitu be ever fielded, if her Double Take triggered only once (or not in BB)? Wouldn't such a change sentence Nekima to be a growth-crew exclusive?

From my experience with the siblings, Lelu gets a lot of action in every circumstances, but Lilitu is chiefly a Luring machine. Belles lure models into the open (among other things), for Seamus to shoot. This is, I'd argue, the original shape of the offensive use of this ability... but Neverborn crews do not shoot. Where just a single Lure was enough for Seamus to engage a model, Neverborn need multiple casts to get it into melee range. That's the reason Double Take is there.

So let's assume you can't retrigger it once you're in melee... Is Lilitu damage strong enough then? She isn't going to survive a counter-attack from most fighty models, but she's a 7SS model and her survival is required for the 14SS worth of models to work properly. Moreover, what is the point of giving the opponent a free move to engage your crew? It'd become a gimmick ability to deal with models specializing in ranged combat, put on a rather expensive set of models.

So what else do we change to compensate for the fact she's going to take beating several times per game now? Give Nephilim better alpha-stike (so that she can still kill the target in combination with other models)? That would cost more AP, but also make it no different to Double Take in the end result.

Just musings, but I think I made my point - sometimes the very thing we absolutely hate is the thing the models are supposed to do, which they really are balanced around, even if we think it ludicrous.

Link debackle showed very clearly where even reasonable changes to the models can throw entire crew off in the wider context of the game. The fixes, if really needed, must go beyond single-model adjustements and be more about re-designing offending crews.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Calmdown]

OK, here's a different tack. I got book 3 lastnight.

Every faction gets one new playable model in the Effigy line. These are generally quite good and slightly undercosted at 4 points, and they stop you from taking a totem with one master. No problem there.

However.....they're all playable by Neverborn and that drawback is removed.

Yet again Neverborn are randomly thrown something extra that they can do for no particular reason.

Where is the need to keep buffing one faction?

Clearly game development is not just fluff oriented, but completely fluff related. Might as well just throw in the towel for tournies now if this is the way the game is progressing.

And this is before we even get to the fact that Neverborn got more top-tier avatars and minions than everybody else. Heh. Go Wyrd.

[Ratty]

OK, here's a different tack. I got book 3 lastnight.

Every faction gets one new playable model in the Effigy line. These are generally quite good and slightly undercosted at 4 points, and they stop you from taking a totem with one master. No problem there.

However.....they're all playable by Neverborn and that drawback is removed.

Yet again Neverborn are randomly thrown something extra that they can do for no particular reason.

But when it comes down to it they are still Special Forces so you can only take 2. What they really are is extra minions for Collodi, who at the end of book 2 had only 3 models he could take.

When you look at the rest of the minions, Iggy is very definitely designed for use by Kaeris and the Spawn Mother and Gupps are probably going to end up being used by Marcus most. So out of the 5 non-effigy models the Neverborn get 3 out of them are probably most likely going to be mostly used by Arcanists.

[Q'iq'el]

Where is the need to keep buffing one faction?

Don't have the Book 3 yet, so only a question:

Is it a buff to entire faction, or merely for Collodi? Because Collodi may not be exactly weak, but a buff to him is not necessarily a buff for entire faction.

[Math Mathonwy]

If the change means they disappear forever from the tables' date=' then it clearly isn't a good change.[/quote']

Naturally.

I realize that this is an example and engaging it is a bit beside the point so I will address the larger issue as well, but just a couple of things:

1) Belle's lure is so much more than just getting models into Seamus's range. I mean, that's the most obvious use, but also one of the weakest. All in all, Seamus's gun, though doing nice damage is a bit of a red herring really. His power is elsewhere and focusing on the gun leads to defeat.

Lure allows you to disrupt enemy synergies, mess up their strategies and schemes, isolate targets, move your own models, clumping the enemy up for AoE, mess with people through clever use of terrain and so much more besides. Lining models up for a shot is very far down the list.

2) The point of "giving the opponent a free move to engage your crew" is that you choose the model you give the free move to. Rami really doesn't want a free move to engage your crew, he's quite happy being 16" away, thank you very much. Even in the case of combat monsters, you can get them isolated and lure them once they have been activated and then gang up on them with your beatsticks. Lilitu even comes paired with her own beatstick with a completely crazy damage table (on par with Seamus's and usable multiple times per round).

All in all a lot of defense of NB seems to revolve around the idea that giving options can be a double edged sword since the player can do completely stupid things with those options. Which seems like an extremely weird argument. Giving options is basically always a bonus since even mediocre players will avoid doing completely silly things with them.

As for the real meat of the post (as opposed to a single, flawed example), of course it will take some forethought to make the cuddles in a way that doesn't make the models useless. That goes without saying. But the suggestions I've seen (for example, the ones in the OP) are very conservative. Stitched are crazy good even if you were able to get VPs from them in Slaughter. If someone leaves them on the shelf because of that... well, mission accomplished, I guess, as right now they are a complete no-brainer choice.

[karn987]

But when it comes down to it they are still Special Forces so you can only take 2. What they really are is extra minions for Collodi, who at the end of book 2 had only 3 models he could take.

When you look at the rest of the minions, Iggy is very definitely designed for use by Kaeris and the Spawn Mother and Gupps are probably going to end up being used by Marcus most. So out of the 5 non-effigy models the Neverborn get 3 out of them are probably most likely going to be mostly used by Arcanists.

Couldn't have put it better honestly.

@Calmdown: Neverborn was not tossed something randomly as you hopefully see now. They were filling out a special force in a very cool and neat way. You could look at it in the reverse, the other factions got thrown a bone with even being able to use the Effigy Dolls. Would you have even brought it up if it was in a special forces section like the Gremlin had been? The Doll special force is the only one that really shares it's models cross multiple factions let alone 1 per all the factions that ANY master in that faction can use.

Then as Ratty said you have Iggy, who is almost more of a Kaeris minion then a Neverborn one. He fills in for some lack of ranged but otherwise runs right into the most contested point cost in Neverborn. The 5 - 6ss slot is very heavily contested for the faction and here is Iggy adding to the mix. He certainly will have his uses, but I am far more likely to take him with Kaeris then I ever am with my Neverborn Masters save Pandora.

Lastly there is the Silurid Breeder and Gups who our local Marcus players practically wet themselves over. The Neverborn players gave them a nod, but they've got got a bunch of other options.

So really, the models Neverborn got that they are probably more likely to use then other factions are Tuco, the Weaver, and the Mysterious Effigy. All the rest are shared cross the other factions.

Avatars are for another time as what makes a top teir Avatar is still easily up for debate. But remember, to the Neverborn players some of them could easily be unpalatable and not exactly competitive. You need to view models through the eyes of their faction if you want to get a real grasp on them.

Is it a buff to entire faction, or merely for Collodi? Because Collodi may not be exactly weak, but a buff to him is not necessarily a buff for entire faction.

Since all the Effigy's are Special Forces Dolls, its only Zoraida and Collodi who can take them all. Some will be nice to take with other Masters, like I can see using Arcane with Pandora frequently. But to me at least, this is more of a buff for Collodi + whatever mast may be taking it. Basically, it's exactly what it is... it's a buff for the Doll Special Force and all the ripples that creates.

Edited August 24, 2011 by karn987

[Calmdown]

The fact that you can only take 2 is not really relevant. The fact is, the faction is being given yet more options that others aren't being given. More and more and more of them. And that's not the only thing; Neverborn (NOT just Collodi) get to take them along with a totem.

So no, it's not really just Neverborn 'sharing' their models. Effigies are undercosted for their abilities (all of them by a point, roughly) and it seems that the balancing factor for this is that you cant run a totem, and that everyone has access to them. That balancing factor goes out of the window when one faction doesnt get that disadvantage and they also get to run two (or more) of them.

Also, the 'they were released for Collodi' is a nasty trend to see. Now, this isn't anti-Neverborn specifically but; two books have now passed and Molly has 3 models she can take. Collodi already had that much choice in book two. Why, if these models were targeted at Collodi, did he get 5 and she got 2? And in addition, why are we in that case 'glossing over' the fact that these models were released for Neverborn, by adding them to other factions' pools, if they're really a Neverborn minion?

Also, regardless of whether the odd one master can use some beasts or spirits or whatever belonging to another faction, that doesn't really make up for the fact that the original faction still has access to it with all of their masters. Also, the aforementioned 'slot competition' in reference to Iggy doesn't devalue a model in anyway; in fact, it's just an indicator of how much choice the faction has already.

It just all doesn't add up, sorry. No matter how you look at it, Neverborn are getting way more options than everyone else in book 3. And that's before we even go into the relative quality of the minions that each faction got...

[Justin]

We're seriously discussing book 3 in regards to balance?

Man, you guys get a lot more games in than I do.

[AdrianMills]

My book 3 hasn't even been dispatched yet

[Math Mathonwy]

The 5 - 6ss slot is very heavily contested for the faction and here is Iggy adding to the mix.

Is that supposed to be a negative now? Wow.

Unless one, again, considers having options dangerous since bad players can make bad choices.

[CannonFodder]

No. Instead, make it so that multiple Alps generate a *single* damage source, with *single* resist, *single debuff* to Resist flip etc. That way the potential for damage is the same, but the opponent is given a realistic chance to resist it.

It will also make high Wp models (and especially Soulstone users) more of a counter to Alps than they currently are.

This is my biggest beef with neverborn. Its the fact that the ALP ability triggers multiple times. The way I read the following

"When activating in range of 1 or more ...'

Means that you make one flip for X Alps in range, not one per Alp. This would balance the Alps more for their cost. and make them more of dreamer guards which they are properly costed for, not bombing material.

Another option to stop LCB from dropping everything and forcing your opponent to make 10 million morale checks is that as the dreamer drops minions they get an effect like slow or paralized that only affects its ability to cause moral checks. This effects only lasts until he end of you next activation.

[Justin]

Not only are we debating the balance of a book that nobody here could possibly have gotten significant play time in with but, amazingly, everyone is still on the exact same side of the debate after having experienced it.

I think we really have given up on trying to lend any sort of actual experience or real evidence to this argument, and it has just become a dogmatic pursuit on both sides.

I almost get the feeling people are sitting there, sifting through the book they must have just gotten looking for things to support their arguments.

[Absolution Black]

I have been reading this thread and all i am seeing is what i see every week.

A new thread will start with 'guild is OP' or 'neverborn is OP', etc.etc.

Surely logic dictates that if everything is therefore OP, then the game is balanced?

I think that, although they do prove interesting, these discussions are never going to end well. We are not going to change each others opinions, so lets just say we all have our viewpoints, valid or not, and leave it at that.

Lets just go out and enjoy playing Malifaux.... From what I have seen and read, each master has a number of counters from each faction..its a case of finding them out.

besides, if Wyrd are aware of the communities feelings, then if a model (s) are Op, they will be fixed in due course....

[karn987]

The fact that you can only take 2 is not really relevant. The fact is, the faction is being given yet more options that others aren't being given. More and more and more of them. And that's not the only thing; Neverborn (NOT just Collodi) get to take them along with a totem.

Actually it is very relevant.... if it wasn't it wouldn't be a rule and would have been left out of the design a long time ago. I'd love to be able to bring all 5 without Collodi, I can see some lists I think would be rather nasty if I could. But the fact is, I can only bring 2 and that heavily influences my list building.

Collodi is an expensive Henchmen because he needs to bring his Marrionettes to be effective. I've not had enough time to play around with it yet, but I always bring at least 3 of them. Without them, Collodi is kinda terrible. So it already forces him to have a higher base cost then any of the other Henchmen for arguably the same return.You don't take Collodi in every crew, just like you don't take Lucius or Molly in every crew. You take them in the ones you want to build and where they fit. Yes they don't use up our Totem slot, but they still cost SS.

Let me stop you for a moment and turn your arguement back onto you. The exact same thing can be said about every single other faction when you look at it isolated without any of the cross faction hiring abilities of Masters etc. Look at book 2, Gremlins sure got a lot more then everyone else, does that make them unfair? What if Molly in the next book got 5 minions for her special force and no one else did? Does that make her unfair? Or is it just because this is Neverborn does it automatically make it unfair?

So no, it's not really just Neverborn 'sharing' their models. Effigies are undercosted for their abilities (all of them by a point, roughly) and it seems that the balancing factor for this is that you cant run a totem, and that everyone has access to them. That balancing factor goes out of the window when one faction doesnt get that disadvantage and they also get to run two (or more) of them.

Have you tried them on the table yet? Have you played with them at all? Your just making wild accusations without even putting the models on the table. I've actually played all 5 of them and I've been working with the 5 Effigy list and Collodi. After two games, I know there is still a lot more I've not seen from them yet. Try putting them to the table, IMO some of them aren't as good as they are on paper. But even then I know I still have many more games to play with them till I understand them fully and see all the subtle connections they make.

So how about if they were just removed from all the other factions and stuck soley in Neverborn? What if no one else ever even got the chance to take them, just like the other special forces? Your looking a gift horse in the mouth. I'm very happy to have these for my other factions. The Arcane and the Hodgepodge in particular really interest me and I can't wait to see what I can do with them.

Also, the 'they were released for Collodi' is a nasty trend to see. Now, this isn't anti-Neverborn specifically but; two books have now passed and Molly has 3 models she can take. Collodi already had that much choice in book two. Why, if these models were targeted at Collodi, did he get 5 and she got 2? And in addition, why are we in that case 'glossing over' the fact that these models were released for Neverborn, by adding them to other factions' pools, if they're really a Neverborn minion?

Molly is now much more functional at least, so you should count your blessings rather then saying you didn't get enough. Because otherwise, what is the use? I'm sure Wyrd is well aware that Molly has a small selection still and I bet they are going to do something about it.

As for Collodi, again what can any of us tell you? They chose to fill out the Doll special force and I know many people are more then happy to have access to their factions effigy Doll. I know for my other faction Crews I've very glad to have them and I see a lot of potential.

If you look carefully at each Effigy you should see how it fits nicely into it's faction. I can see a use for all of them internally in their faction and I can see the subtle web they create when all brought together in 1 list. They aren't neverborn models shoved into other factions, they have far more in common with their own faction then they do the NB. Many of them fit the fluff nicely in that they sorta represent the factions abilities in their own.

Also, regardless of whether the odd one master can use some beasts or spirits or whatever belonging to another faction, that doesn't really make up for the fact that the original faction still has access to it with all of their masters.

Do you deny the fact that some models will see greater or as much use out of faction as they do see in faction? That stuff matters, it matters during play and it matters during design. Imagine how careful they have to be when making a new Construct or Undead becuase of Leveticus. Or every new Beast because of Marcus, or any Wp 4 models because of Zoraida.

No one can really comment much on the power level of the B3 stuff, its still all very new. Even people who've had the book since Gencon still have a long way to go. Give it 3 months, then come back and see where people stand on the Effigy Dolls. Give it 5 or 6 and see what's gone on with Avatars. Your going on and on about models you'e not even tried yet and IMO blowing this vastly out of purportion. Play the models. Play with them and against them, then come back and argue if they are balanced or not, or if this is fair or not.

Edited August 24, 2011 by karn987

[Calmdown]

Lol, you people.

"Molly is now much more functional at least, so you should count your blessings rather then saying you didn't get enough. "

Ahahahahaha.

"So how about if they were just removed from all the other factions and stuck soley in Neverborn? What if no one else ever even got the chance to take them, just like the other special forces? Your looking a gift horse in the mouth."

I like how you think it's your right and privilege as a player of the best faction to get all this stuff and everyone else should be thankful for access to it.

Forget it. Enough of this forum. Far too many idiots here who refuse to see facts.

[Soundwave]

Screw you guys, I'm going home!

[Absolution Black]

Screw you guys, I'm going home!

Best post in the thread.......

[emissary]

Best post in the thread.......

lol agreed

This forum at times reminds me of warseer.

[Wulfen]

Screw you guys, I'm going home!

You know, it sounds funny, but I'd add that almost our entire Malifaux community, such as it is, does the same. They avoid this forum like the plague.

I'm the only sucker who keeps trying.

[Soundwave]

You know, it sounds funny, but I'd add that almost our entire Malifaux community, such as it is, does the same. They avoid this forum like the plague.

I'm the only sucker who keeps trying.

And why's that?

[Q'iq'el]

You know, it sounds funny, but I'd add that almost our entire Malifaux community, such as it is, does the same. They avoid this forum like the plague.

I'm the only sucker who keeps trying.

The forum results in horrible arguments when people try to push their view of the balance through. It's not the first time and it's not something new. It's also hardly a Malifaux specific. It is considerably more tolerant to well documented and well argued posts, which we unfortunately haven't seen too many.

On the other hand if you come asking for advice how to deal with something, more often than not you'll get some helpful advice or at least a constructive brainstorm... granted, you need to filter out the inevitable "it cannot be beaten, man" posts.

At the very least that's my experience. Whether it was painting or crew building advice, I've got ample of help here.