Rafkin, or "Now My Nicodem Crew has Two Sidekicks"

[Matamane]

Crude Play By Play

Turn 1

Ashes and Dust jumps rope

Nurse casts Massive Dose on Vultures, and uses Attendant

Vultures strike enough to get Ashes and Dust to 1 wound

Rafkin uses Preserve Bodies, strikes each Vulture to kill, netting 1 BP counter. 2 Corpses on the table, 1 BP on Rafkin

Nicodem strikes Ashes and Dust, triggers Empty Vessel, Nicodem places 3 Mindless Zombies and Ashes and Dust places Dust Storm and Ashen Core

Nicodem uses Arise, we now have 5 Mindless Zombies and Rafkin has 6 BP counters. Nicodem casts Reanimator, summoning Rogue Necromancy. Draw 4 cards, and remember that Rafkin now has 10 BP counters. Feel free to cast Reanimator again, my personal choice being a Punk Zombie. Draw another card, and Rafkin has 11 BP counters

Rogue Necromancy jumps rope

Dust Storm jumps rope

Ashen Core jumps rope.

Turn 2

Nurse uses Furious Casting to Massive Dose Rafkin, Nicodem, and Rogue Necromancy, also uses Attendant

Rafkin casts Forestall Decomposition, uses Preserve Bodies, and strikes if he feels like it...

Rogue Necromancy and the Ashen Core/Dust Storm have at it. Acid Breathing on the Punk Zombie is nasty and funny

End result is Rogue Necromancy going down like a bitch, leaving 3 corpse counters, Ashen Core and Dust Storm at 1 wound apiece, and 1 possibly alive Punk Zombie

Nicodem strikes at Ashen Core and Dust Storm, triggering Empty Vessel twice, and we get 4 more Mindless Zombies Nicodem uses Arise, Rafkin is sitting pretty at 17/18 BP counters, and we have 7 Mindless Zombies. Nicodem casts Reanimator, summoning Rogue Necromancy. Draw 4 cards, Rafkin is at 21/22 BP counters

Nicodem reactivates, uses Arise, same drill as before, Rafkin's count is at 24/25 BP, then Casting Expert Reanimator to get something, at this point go for the Flesh Golem. Draw another 2, and Rafkin has 26/27

You can Manifest with your 2 general AP, good for you.

Avatar of Decay uses Mass Grave, try and cheat for the Red Joker to get 4 more Mindless Zombies. After all your card draw, you probably were able to filter both Jokers into your hand. Cast Decay to heal all your guys

At this point, Rogue Necromancy can Acid Breath and filter through more Mindless Zombies, and Flesh Golem/Punk Zombie can do the same. Even your Mindless Zombies can get in on this action. Rafkin should have about 40 counters by now

Rafkin reactivates and casts Hasty Disposal.

Look your opponent straight in the face and yell out "FOR PONY!!!"

40 counters evenly split is 10 Mindless Zombies and 5 Guild Autopsy, so yeah 15 Mindless Zombies, 5 Guild Autopsy, a Punk Zombie, a Flesh Golem, and Rogue Necromancy. Nicodem is safe due to the effect getting wiped in the manifest. Rafkin will become the butt monkey of the Romero Movie and will promptly get killed and converted.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Matamane
0 actions I did not abuse

[Mach_5]

:listen:

:top:

[Matamane]

Was that a emote of approval or disgust?

[Mach_5]

A little of both. xD

Would be fun to try once, but I don't think I could bring myself to do it regularly.

[Matamane]

In a world of Alp Bombs and Hamelin spamming rats, I'm cool with it.

Actually, I'm immune to both by turn 2 so even cooler.

It's this or my McMourning patriot missile list in those situations.

[Mach_5]

In a world of Alp Bombs and Hamelin spamming rats, I'm cool with it.

No doubt! Would be interesting to see how badly this would crush the Filth list.

[Matamane]

I out activate a Filth list almost 5 to 1, so probably pretty well

[d_mun]

All I can say is that I need more mindless zombie models now.

[Q'iq'el]

You dont hit him if he has MZs out around him, or you hit the MZs directly before hitting him. Or you hit him when he doesn't have MZs. Nicodem does not have an endless supply of MZs, especially in the current game where you are generally playing against crews that drop little-no corpse counters.

If you put the pressure on the MZs, all you achieve is keeping Bolster Undead down (which is still quite a gain). The MZs you kill drop Corpse Counters and all he needs is an Arise to get them all back up.

If you hit Nicodem hard enough to force him to sac a Zombie, that Zombie isn't coming back (no counter).

Some crews can destroy (=sac) counters. These crews can also destroy Mindless Zombies directly. For other crews killing MZs may not be the best option.

And obviously if you go after his Undead minions, he couldn't like it any better. Going after his crucial minions (Mortimer, Rafkin, Bete, Molly) hurts the crew more, but these are not always the easiest to kill.

[Matamane]

You're not playing traditional Nicodem though, you're going for Avatar of Decay. My list's play style is different as a result.

Also given what I am using Rafkin for, those actions which affect corpse counters help me, but somewhat limits my summoning. Only somewhat as in all but 1 case, they come from the same activation.

Also, once Avatar of Decay hits the field, Mindless Zombies are no longer corpse counters.

Finally, given Avatar of Decay, would you rather have a buff that ends with the turn, or two or more new models that will constantly buff him.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Matamane

[sephiroa]

i don't want to annoy you, but i think you are wrong,,

ashes and dust cannot be use to create MZ, since they don't drop counters, and MZ can only be created from models that drop corpse counters (even with empty vessel)

[Geckilian]

Ashes and Dust states 'This model does not generate counters of any kind.' Nicodem's trigger states -

'After killing a living or Undead defender with a Cane Strike or Decay, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the defender’s base size in base contact with the defender before it is removed from play. Defender does not generate Corpse Counters.'

The kicker is that the Mindless Zombies have Walking Dead - 'Counts as a Corpse Counter, but cannot be picked up.'

So the issue isn't that Mindless Zombies can only be created from things that drop counters which isn't actually barred, but that the MZ are counters themselves, and as such it could be argued that they can't be generated by Ashes and Dust.

Of course you can argue that Nicodem's trigger is what's generating the MZ corpse counters, not Ashes and Dust, so... up for debate. I'm on the side of Nicodem, since his trigger places them, not Ashes specifically dying as per usual rules.

[sephiroa]

Ashes and Dust states 'This model does not generate counters of any kind.' Nicodem's trigger states -

'After killing a living or Undead defender with a Cane Strike or Decay, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the defender’s base size in base contact with the defender before it is removed from play. Defender does not generate Corpse Counters.'

The kicker is that the Mindless Zombies have Walking Dead - 'Counts as a Corpse Counter, but cannot be picked up.'

So the issue isn't that Mindless Zombies can only be created from things that drop counters which isn't actually barred, but that the MZ are counters themselves, and as such it could be argued that they can't be generated by Ashes and Dust.

Of course you can argue that Nicodem's trigger is what's generating the MZ corpse counters, not Ashes and Dust, so... up for debate. I'm on the side of Nicodem, since his trigger places them, not Ashes specifically dying as per usual rules.

this argument already has been posted before,

to make it short, RM said this:

empty vessel: models dropping corpse counters do not drop them, they become MZ.

[sephiroa]

it sucks, i know,,

[Matamane]

That ruling makes no sense, and I want to hear it from the highest authority.

As the trigger itself denies corpse counters, it makes no sense. I deny the ruling until I hear it from the top.

[edonil]

I'd suggest looking in the rules forum for the ruling. Anything from a Rules Marshal is an official ruling.

[Hatchethead]

The trigger doesn't deny counters, it simply replaces them. MZ are counters, mobile ones. The Empty Vessel wording clarifies that a living or Undead model that would usually drop corpse counters instead drops MZ, and not both.

Granted, the wording could be more clear, but I'm pretty sure that's the intention. Only models that would normally generate corpse counters generate MZ. After all, the target needs to be living or Undead, and should therefore be dropping counters. That's just my interpretation.

[Matamane]

Granted, but the reason he gave would imply the trigger would never work

[Q'iq'el]

Granted, but the reason he gave would imply the trigger would never work

This, essentially, works like that:

1. There's the Designer's intention on how the rule works.

2. There's wording, which may be flawed and allow for non-intentional play.

3. There comes ruling which forces people to play the way it was intended.

It is perfectly OK for the ruling to go completely against the logic of the wording, because that means the wording has been flawed.

The rulings may get reversed, if you manage to show that the new wording messes up the game in other, unpredicted, areas. But that, typically, won't change how the rule you are interested in works - it will just get reworded so that everything works like intended.

[Issalbotproto]

That's the good thing about Nicodem (and McMounring).

You're still playing Guild!

I know I own nothing but guild and Mcmourning, and it's still all guild <3

[sephiroa]

That ruling makes no sense, and I want to hear it from the highest authority.

As the trigger itself denies corpse counters, it makes no sense. I deny the ruling until I hear it from the top.

ruling makes sense.

the trigger summons MZ instead of the corpse counters that it would drop, if they did not write the part at the end of the trigger "this models does not drop any counters" you could use the counters the model drops to create another set of MZ

you use the effects 1 by 1, not everything at once,

1: model is killed

2: MZ are summoned equal to the amount of corpse counters the model would drop normally

3: the model does not drop any other corpse counters.

since desolate core states that ashes and dust does not drop ANY counters, empty vessel never triggers against him.

[Matamane]

Yes, post after the ruling was cleared up, we have cleared up that issue. I feel good about my rule sharking, and I got what I wanted.