My dreamer's alpha strike

[Calmdown]

Oh and it's also dead funny to catch him with Von schills librarian and strip associated suits and watch him flounder trying to make a hand that works.

You guys know that Shadowy Form stops ranged attacks right?

Go find the ruling yourself you lazy bugger. Multiple people ion the forum telling you that that's the way it is should be enough

[demkoenig]

When Chompy pops out, he doesn't interrupt anybody's activation. He interrupts the order of activations (like companion) and LCB activates after the Dreamer is done.

Of course, I think Calmdown knows this, because he started this thread.

[mindwarpusa]

As far as the rule on Nytmare's(LCB) One Master ability your interpretation is wrong :fisheye: as per the rules manual page 31 Heading: Activation Phase, sub heading: Multiple Activations, paragraph two,

"A model allowed to activate immediately by an effect does so before any other model activates, but after the current model's activation ends.".

[Smokey616]

You guys know that Shadowy Form stops ranged attacks right?

Go find the ruling yourself you lazy bugger. Multiple people ion the forum telling you that that's the way it is should be enough

I'm happy with not knowing thank you and shadowy form doesn't stop ranged attacks it redirects them to nightmares in vicinity. Oh and thread was started by mindwarp. Oh and if it states that in the rulebook then why have the made the ruling? Strange things are afoot at the circle k

[Fetid Strumpet]

If you declare a target of a spell or ranged attack and then find out that the target was illegal it doesn't switch it to another legal target, it just fails. So if the Dreamer has a Stitched nearby and you target the Dreamer, and then the Stitched is found to be close enough for Shadowy form to work your attack just fails, it does not get shifted to the Stitched.

[Cunning]

If you declare a target of a spell or ranged attack and then find out that the target was illegal it doesn't switch it to another legal target, it just fails. So if the Dreamer has a Stitched nearby and you target the Dreamer, and then the Stitched is found to be close enough for Shadowy form to work your attack just fails, it does not get shifted to the Stitched.

Are you sure that's right? The wording on the card is 'can not target the dreamer ...' So you'd check first wouldn't you? It doesn't say the action fails.

For instance, a ranged attack can target anything in LOS. If it happens to be out of range then the action fails. But you still can target it.

With shadowy form, the dreamer is effectively removed from the list of possible target which you can pick from to declare the target of the ranged attack.

At least that's how I understand it.

[Adran]

Oh and if it states that in the rulebook then why have the made the ruling? Strange things are afoot at the circle k

Largely because people didn't read the rules properly and came here asking questions which the book already answers. As you've demonstrated.

The Rules Marshall often just repeat the rules in the book, sometimes with explaination as to why.

Its often easier to direct people to the Rules Marshall explaination rather than say "Read page 31"

It can be a pain for people fairly new to these forums but most of these questions have come up before and be answered and discussed already, so when they post an answer its often the previously issued official one. (Not always though).Which is roughly what I think Calmdown ws tring to say in his own special way.

You'd be amazed at how many people don't understand the one master rule when they read it for example.

[Q'iq'el]

Are you sure that's right? The wording on the card is 'can not target the dreamer ...' So you'd check first wouldn't you? It doesn't say the action fails.

For instance, a ranged attack can target anything in LOS. If it happens to be out of range then the action fails. But you still can target it.

With shadowy form, the dreamer is effectively removed from the list of possible target which you can pick from to declare the target of the ranged attack.

At least that's how I understand it.

With ranged attack you check the range only after declaring the target. So you simply cannot target The Dreamer if there's another Nightmare in LoS. That is, I suppose, exactly what you say.

But that also means your attack fails, just like Fetid Strumpet says - you must begin the attack to check the range, so if you decide to attack even though you know it will fail, it will simply be a waste of AP.

If the Nightmare is not in LoS though, you cannot target it and then it becomes possible to target the Dreamer. This can be achieved at right angles (if some object blocks LoS to the Nightmare, but doesn't block the LoS to The Dreamer), or if Stitched Fog is up (if there's 3" or less of Fog between you and The Dreamer, but more than 3" of Fog to other Nightmares).

Melee attacks check for range before you declare the target, so you can target the Dreamer if Nightmares are out of range.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Smokey616]

Largely because people didn't read the rules properly and came here asking questions which the book already answers. As you've demonstrated.

The Rules Marshall often just repeat the rules in the book, sometimes with explaination as to why.

Its often easier to direct people to the Rules Marshall explaination rather than say "Read page 31"

It can be a pain for people fairly new to these forums but most of these questions have come up before and be answered and discussed already, so when they post an answer its often the previously issued official one. (Not always though).Which is roughly what I think Calmdown ws tring to say in his own special way.

Right you are then.... .... Sponge cake anyone?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Cake! It's not a Lie!

[Cunning]

With ranged attack you check the range only after declaring the target. So you simply cannot target The Dreamer if there's another Nightmare in LoS. That is, I suppose, exactly what you say.

But that also means your attack fails, just like Fetid Strumpet says - you must begin the attack to check the range, so if you decide to attack even though you know it will fail, it will simply be a waste of AP.

If the Nightmare is not in LoS though, you cannot target it and then it becomes possible to target the Dreamer. This can be achieved at right angles (if some object blocks LoS to the Nightmare, but doesn't block the LoS to The Dreamer), or if Stitched Fog is up (if there's 3" or less of Fog between you and The Dreamer, but more than 3" of Fog to other Nightmares).

Melee attacks check for range before you declare the target, so you can target the Dreamer if Nightmares are out of range.

See, I read it as being that you can't even attempt to target him. Like if he was not in LoS. Otherwise it'd be more along the lines of 'If an action that targets the dreamer when the dreamer is within 3" of a nightmare who is a valid target of the action then the action automatically fails.'

[Fetid Strumpet]

But, how could you tell when it would be legal to target him in this case? You can't pre-measure or check the distance of the nightmare until you declare the target of your strike.

See this thread for an example:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19713

Edited September 22, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Smokey616]

cake! It's not a lie!

the cake never lies !!!!!!!!!!

[mindwarpusa]

the point is that its not about range its that if you have LOS to the nightmare than you cannot target the dreamer. So as soon as you say I target the dreamer then the dreamer player should say no your not you have los to so and so. remember that los is common knowledge and can be checked at anytime same as melee range

[Q'iq'el]

See, I read it as being that you can't even attempt to target him. Like if he was not in LoS.

There are two parts to this thing. One is the rules for Declaring Target, which I think you have right. The other, is the rules for Combat and Magic Duels, which is the part you've missed, I think.

The procedure for Declaring a Target is on page 14.

1. Check LoS (involves checking for Blocking or Obscuring Terrain and such)

2. Check for special situations (Ranged Attack - only if there are specific Action/Spell related restrictions, Melee Attack - target isn't legal if it you can't engage it, which you know beforehand, and other specific Action/Spell related restrictions may apply)

3. Check for Talents and Spells that may prevent you from Targeting (Shadowy Form, Harmless and such).

At point 3 Shadowy Form forces you to do this entire check (all 3 points) against a Nightmare in range (from The Dreamer). If the Nightmare turns to be Legal Target, the check for The Dreamer fails at point 3 and it is no longer a Legal Target.

Now we move to the second part of the issue, which is the rules for starting an Attack.

Those are on pages 42 for Combat Duels (Melee and Ranged Strikes) and 51 for Magic Duels (Casts).

In the former case, you are told to:

1. Make a strike.

2. Declare Target

3. Check Range

If you cannot Declare the Target, the Strike fails (so you lose AP). It also fails if the target is out of Range. Melee models can check the range before they make the strike due to the rule on page 39 which allows models to check if they are engaged with or engaging enemy models at any time... but they still have to go through step 3. They just know if the target is in melee range before Declaring Target and thus the Nightmare can be non legal target, if it's out of range (falls under point 2 of the Delclaring Target procedure).

In case of Magic it works identical to ranged strikes, except that:

1. The model declares the Spell it is casting, spends the required AP and meets any other requirements (such as discarding cards or suffering Dg or Wd)...

2. and nominates a target within LoS if one is required.

3. Check the Range

4. Start Ca->CC duel

Note that if the spell fails, the additional cost the rules speak about is not the same as the additional cost listed in the effect of the spell. I believe this extra requirements apply only in rare situations where models must suffer additional costs except their AP to even attempt the Cast action.

That's because the costs listed in the spells' effects have been ruled to apply only if the spell succeeds (I.e. the Target is Legal, in range, Ca->CC duels succeeds and the Resist duel fails).

Anyway, because you officialy Declare Target and check if it is legal only after you make your strike or cast action, it is possible to attack the Dreamer only for the action to fail due to Shadowy Form. It is also possible to declare Strikes or Casts against models clearly not in LoS or Range. You'll just fail and most of the time it is equal to Pass action* - you lose AP.

Melee actions are superior against Shadowy Form (and the reason why I called them the logical choice before ), because the Declare Target procedure against the Nightmare, which Shadowy Forms triggers, fails at point 2 of Declaring Target procedure (above or page 14) and the Nightmare becomes known to be not a Legal Target, which in turns means Shadowy Form fails and The Dreamer is a Legal target.

Then you proceed with your strike Duel against The Dreamer, as he checks out as Legal Target.

In case of casts and ranged strikes, the Nightmare will check out as a Legal Target, Shadowy Form will succeed in blocking the attack and The Dreamer will not check out as a Legal Target... at which point you don't even have to check your range to the Nightmare, as your attack has already failed due to the Target not being Legal.

*In rare cases where discarding cards or suffering Dg is required to cast (I'm not sure if such cases even exist, but Rules Manual seems to account for them), you can use this to suicide your model or to discard Control Card. You still won't be able to do it if you have to take Wd, as you can't take action which would kill you, though it would allow you to lover your Wd count if you want.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Cunning]

There are two parts to this thing. One is the rules for Declaring Target, which I think you have right. The other, is the rules for Combat and Magic Duels, which is the part you've missed, I think.

The procedure for Declaring a Target is on page 14.

1. Check LoS (involves checking for Blocking or Obscuring Terrain and such)

2. Check for special situations (Ranged Attack - only if there are specific Action/Spell related restrictions, Melee Attack - target isn't legal if it you can't engage it, which you know beforehand, and other specific Action/Spell related restrictions may apply)

3. Check for Talents and Spells that may prevent you from Targeting (Shadowy Form, Harmless and such).

At point 3 Shadowy Form forces you to do this entire check (all 3 points) against a Nightmare in range (from The Dreamer). If the Nightmare turns to be Legal Target, the check for The Dreamer fails at point 3 and it is no longer a Legal Target.

Now we move to the second part of the issue, which is the rules for starting an Attack.

Those are on pages 42 for Combat Duels (Melee and Ranged Strikes) and 51 for Magic Duels (Casts).

In the former case, you are told to:

1. Make a strike.

2. Declare Target

3. Check Range

If you cannot Declare the Target, the Strike fails (so you lose AP). It also fails if the target is out of Range. Melee models can check the range before they make the strike due to the rule on page 39 which allows models to check if they are engaged with or engaging enemy models at any time... but they still have to go through step 3. They just know if the target is in melee range before Declaring Target and thus the Nightmare can be non legal target, if it's out of range (falls under point 2 of the Delclaring Target procedure).

In case of Magic it works identical to ranged strikes, except that:

1. The model declares the Spell it is casting, spends the required AP and meets any other requirements (such as discarding cards or suffering Dg or Wd)...

2. and nominates a target within LoS if one is required.

3. Check the Range

4. Start Ca->CC duel

Note that if the spell fails, the additional cost the rules speak about is not the same as the additional cost listed in the effect of the spell. I believe this extra requirements apply only in rare situations where models must suffer additional costs except their AP to even attempt the Cast action.

That's because the costs listed in the spells' effects have been ruled to apply only if the spell succeeds (I.e. the Target is Legal, in range, Ca->CC duels succeeds and the Resist duel fails).

Anyway, because you officialy Declare Target and check if it is legal only after you make your strike or cast action, it is possible to attack the Dreamer only for the action to fail due to Shadowy Form. It is also possible to declare Strikes or Casts against models clearly not in LoS or Range. You'll just fail and most of the time it is equal to Pass action* - you lose AP.

Melee actions are superior against Shadowy Form (and the reason why I called them the logical choice before ), because the Declare Target procedure against the Nightmare, which Shadowy Forms triggers, fails at point 2 of Declaring Target procedure (above or page 14) and the Nightmare becomes known to be not a Legal Target, which in turns means Shadowy Form fails and The Dreamer is a Legal target.

Then you proceed with your strike Duel against The Dreamer, as he checks out as Legal Target.

In case of casts and ranged strikes, the Nightmare will check out as a Legal Target, Shadowy Form will succeed in blocking the attack and The Dreamer will not check out as a Legal Target... at which point you don't even have to check your range to the Nightmare, as your attack has already failed due to the Target not being Legal.

*In rare cases where discarding cards or suffering Dg is required to cast (I'm not sure if such cases even exist, but Rules Manual seems to account for them), you can use this to suicide your model or to discard Control Card. You still won't be able to do it if you have to take Wd, as you can't take action which would kill you, though it would allow you to lover your Wd count if you want.

I can see what your saying. I guess I see it as not being able to see the Dreamer at all. You'd think someone would know if they could see their target before trying to shoot them. Like Stitched's fog. It's not terrain or visible on the board but you'd still know if it blocked LoS before you tried to shoot.

[Q'iq'el]

I can see what your saying. I guess I see it as not being able to see the Dreamer at all. You'd think someone would know if they could see their target before trying to shoot them. Like Stitched's fog. It's not terrain or visible on the board but you'd still know if it blocked LoS before you tried to shoot.

Oh yes, they (players) do know that.

The simple version of the argument is the rules do not prevent you from delcaring a strike or cast against a model you don't see, even if you know you don't see it.

If you do that mistake (or do that on purpose for some other reason), the AP is wasted.

In case of Shadowy form the thing is more tricky, because you may have LoS to The Dreamer and his Nightmare, know perfectly well Shadowy Form will prevent you from targeting The Dreamer, but you still check for Shadowy Form only after making the strike/cast action and when checking if he is a Legal Target.

So not being able to target someone simply doesn't prevent you from making an action that would require you to target him. The action simply fizzles and you lose AP.

I guess this setting allows for two things:

- New players can burn themselves by wasting an AP on action they should know would fail from the start (and learn the hard way).

- A player under pressure may forget about something like Creepy Fog, make a strike against target not in LoS (thinking he can see it) and lose the AP once he discovers he can't see it.

The later implies, IMHO, a rather competitive environment where players on both sides don't remind each other what effects may be in play.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Cunning]

The manula specifically says a model must be on LoS to be declared a target. So it would go.

Declare strike.

Check who is in LoS and pick one model that is in LoS as the target.

If no targets are in LoS then the strike fails.

So as I read it Shadowy Form would take effect here too. So you discover that the Dreamer is not a valid target but you can still pick another target instead if one exists. If not the strike fails.

I think.

This is definitely correct for Creeping Fog though as this blocks LoS.

It's not

Declare strike

Choose target

Discover target is over 3" in creeping fog and so the stike fails.

It's

Declare strike

Discover model is over 3" in creeping fog, target something else.

[Q'iq'el]

The manula specifically says a model must be on LoS to be declared a target. So it would go.

Declare strike.

Check who is in LoS and pick one model that is in LoS as the target.

If no targets are in LoS then the strike fails.

But this is exactly what me and FetidStrumpet talk about.

You first Declare Strike (in fact rules on page 42 say "models making a ranged or melee Strike use the Strike attack sequence" and then the first point of that sequence is "Declare Target, Then Check Range").

Then you Declare Target... and that follows the procedure from the page 14.

If that procedure fails, then there's no Legal Target and the strike fails - exactly the way you quoted it.

If the strike fails, you waste AP spent on it.

Everything is fine. The only problem is you must have assumed this means it fails before it is made, but that cannot happen - to fail, it must be made first. It is made the moment you declare you make it and then declare the target.

[Cunning]

You said

A player under pressure may forget about something like Creepy Fog, make a strike against target not in LoS (thinking he can see it) and lose the AP once he discovers he can't see it.

This is the wrong way around. You can't target something not in LoS so it will only fail if there is nothing at all in LoS.

The more I think about this I think you're right about Shadowy form as it doesn't mention anything about LoS. But in general after declaring the strike you work out everything that is in LoS and then pick a model that is to be the target.

[Q'iq'el]

You said

This is the wrong way around. You can't target something not in LoS so it will only fail if there is nothing at all in LoS.

See, this is exactly your mistake I'm trying to point out. You can *make a strike* and then discover the target *you declare* is not in LoS, so isn't Legal. Because checking LoS happens after you make a strike, according to the very rules you quoted yourself (because these things happen when you make the strike, not before you make it).

To put it RAW, Declaring Target is part of Strike Duel. Strike Duel is what you do when you make a strike. You have to spend AP to start a Strike Duel.

The more I think about this I think you're right about Shadowy form as it doesn't mention anything about LoS. But in general after declaring the strike you work out everything that is in LoS and then pick a model that is to be the target.

The thing is, Shadowy Form is not an exception. It works through the same procedure, it just forces you to check Legal Target once more.

1. Spend AP and start the Strike.

2. Step 1 of Strike Duel - Declare Target (The Dreamer) ->Page 14 for the rules.

2a. Check if the target is Legal - check LoS.

2b. Check if there are special circumstances (like not in melee range so not legal).

2c. Check if there are rules preventing targetting ->Here Shadowy form comes in.

2cI Check if a Nightmare is in the right range from The Dreamer.

2cII Check if the Nightmare is a Legal Target

2cIIa Check if the Nightmare is in LoS

2cIIb Check if there are special circumstances (like melee range)

2cIIc Check if there are any Talents preventing targeting the Nightmare (if the Nightmare in question is Lilitu and it is Irresistible and you fail the Wp Duel, that may prevent Shadowy Form from working it seems).

2cIII if the Nightmare is Legal Target, the Dreamer is not Legal. If Nightmare isn't a Legal Target, Shadowy Form fails.

3. Check Range to The Dreamer.

So if the step 2cIII The Dreamer turns out not to be a Legal Target (because Shadowy Form succeeds and prevents you from targeting him) you failed your strike.

But you needed to make that strike to come to that step first.

I find it interesting, that in the process of coming up with this procedure I discovered Lilitu's Irresistible may cause Shadowy Form to fail. But it isn't all that surprising, because that's exactly the reason why Creepy Fog can cause Shadowy Form to fail, which I already explained before.

[Cunning]

The manual says:

A model must be within the attacker's LoS to be declared the target of a Strike

So here you can see that you may not target someone not in LoS.

If there are not targets within the attacker's LoS, the Strike fails

Here you can see that at this point you haven't picked a target as it specifically says at this point it will only fail if no one is in LoS.

Once a target in LoS has been declared the target of the Strike, ensure the target is in range

Again confirming that you can only declare a target that is in LoS as the target of the strike.

At this point if anything else makes the strike fail (being out of range for instance) then it fails.

The step is describes as Declare Target, then check range. Not Declare Target, check LoS, then check Range.

Checking LoS is part and parcel of the declaring a target step.

[Q'iq'el]

The manual says:

So here you can see that you may not target someone not in LoS.

Yes yes. You don't read what I'm saying though.

You as a player can check LOS at any time.

"Declaring a Target" is not you saying "I want to shot this", it is a procedure described on page 14. It is a gaming term.

You "Declare the Target" after you start your Strike.

And as part of the procedure for "Declaring the Target" you check if the target is in LoS (check Page 14 bullet point 1 if you don't believe me).

If it is not in LOS, then you cannot "Declare the Target" and then your Strike fails.

But you as a player having foreknowledge of the intended target not being in LoS doesn't prevent you from making the strike. It only prevents you from "Declaring the Target" which already is a step of the Strike Duel.

So at that point the Strike fails.

Think of it as knowing LoS before you make strike, but knowing it "officialy" only in the "Declare Target" step of the strike.

[Cunning]

Yes yes. You don't read what I'm saying though.

You as a player can check LOS at any time.

"Declaring a Target" is not you saying "I want to shot this", it is a procedure described on page 14. It is a gaming term.

You "Declare the Target" after you start your Strike.

And as part of the procedure for "Declaring the Target" you check if the target is in LoS (check Page 14 bullet point 1 if you don't believe me).

If it is not in LOS, then you cannot "Declare the Target" and then your Strike fails.

But you as a player having foreknowledge of the intended target not being in LoS doesn't prevent you from making the strike. It only prevents you from "Declaring the Target" which already is a step of the Strike Duel.

So at that point the Strike fails.

Think of it as knowing LoS before you make strike, but knowing it "officialy" only in the "Declare Target" step of the strike.

I am reading what you're saying but what you're saying is wrong. Both due to the steps I just pointed out and also by the page you were quoting.

Which says:

When an effect requires a target, the following should be determined in order:

First, check that the item in question is in the targeting model's LoS.

Then, check for any special situations that may allow or prevent the item to be targeted.

Finally, check for Talent/Spells that may allow/prevent targeting.

If all of these factors allow the item to be targeted, the the model can declare that item as the target.

So you can see that by this point you have not declared a target. This are tests to see whether you may declare a model as a target.

Also Irresitable does not prevent a model from targetting it. It makes the action fail if they do target it and fail a Wp test. Which is a different thing.

[Q'iq'el]

I am reading what you're saying but what you're saying is wrong. Both due to the steps I just pointed out and also by the page you were quoting.

Which says:

So you can see that by this point you have not declared a target. This are tests to see whether you may declare a model as a target.

Yes, that's true. I have quoted these points myself.

But you realise the point in the timeline when you Declare the Target, right? It's not before you begin Strike Duel, it is the first step of the Strike Duel.

This is the point where you skip a detail and return to your mistaken order of things.

You are perfectly right that you cannot Declare Target if there's no LoS. I haven't disputed it even once.

The problem is you Declare Target *when* you make the strike. At that point you have already paid AP. And as the rules you have quoted say, if you can't Declare Target (it isn't legal due to Declare Target checks), your strike fails.

Strike fails = action fails. It has to be taken and paid with AP first to fail.

Also Irresitable does not prevent a model from targetting it. It makes the action fail if they do target it and fail a Wp test. Which is a different thing.

You may be right here. I haven't checked the wording when the idea occured to me. I thought it made it impossible to target the model if you failed Wp duel.