My dreamer's alpha strike

[mindwarpusa]

ok so here's my dreamer alpha strike(i don't know if its common or not)

list important parts

Dreamer/Lcb

2x Daydreams

Deploy

one daydream in a very safe spot with space for the dreamer and lcb to be called back to(daydream 1)

second daydream as close to your opponents model that you want to die(I like going after the master).(daydream 2)

last place the dreamer within 6" of both

1st turn

companion the dreamer with his two daydreams

daydream 2 activates

(1) walk 6"

(1) magical extension frightening dream bring out LCB within 6"

(0) Calm Nightmares-bury lcb bring out dreamer in b2b

Dreamer Activates

(0) I can fly

(1)walk 7"

*now your at 20" from where daydream 2 started if the model you wanna attack is with in 4" do this

(0) nightmare Friend bring out lcb in b2b

LCB activates

(+1)melee expert attack model with ten in claws

*at this point you're attacking a model that was 24" away from daydream 2

*don't forget triggers esp onslaught

(1) attack model again if you need to or walk closer to another target

(1) and one more time if you need to or hey another model

(0) dreamer's daydream (daydream 3) to summon a daydream but don't place farther than 6" away

Daydream 3 activates

(0) calm nightmares bring out the dreamer in b2b

(1) walk to a good position to either let this model be killed to bring out say a teddy or out of harms way.

Daydream 1 activates

(1) magical extension frightening dream bring out LCB within 6"

(0) calm nightmares bring out the dreamer in b2b

*(1) lead nightmare to pull daydream 2 back into companion range

* another fun thing is to leave daydream 3 out by the other teams crew as bait so that when they go and kill him they summon a nightmare (i like teddy for this) as they die and you'll have a dead daydream to do another alpha strike with

*also to add some more range instead of having the dreamer take only one ap have him walk again for another 7" then do his nightmare friend 0 action and if you need it have lcb use his general ap that he's left with to walk again then just use his melee expert and hope for onslaught(or cheat it)

*you can also always drop a bunch of nightmares at 26" with the dreamer frighting dream trigger all my friends

So with this you have at least one attack with lcb up to 35" away from where your first daydream activated and put The Dreamer in a very safe spot.

Questions? Ideas to make it better?

(yes I know run on sentences)

Edited August 15, 2011 by mindwarpusa
fixed a smallish problem

[marshimartian]

Two things- daydream 3 cannot be summoned more than 6"away anyway due to summoning rules

Unless I missed something, daydream 3 would not be able to simultaneously activate, which will give your opponent an activation before you can get dreamer to safety, better to keep a tome for the All Done trigger

[mindwarpusa]

in the wording of lcb's spell "discard two soulstones. place a daydream within 8" of this model. immediately activate this daydream following this model's activation. the daydream may only take walk and (0) actions this turn" although rereading it I mistook it for just having slow so he cannot bury himself. I will see if i can revise this in the orginal post... but yes all done with a high book in hand is great but i tend to save that for latter rounds when the other master has no soulstones or i already have all 3 daydreams.

[marshimartian]

So we were both a little wrong,i was working from memory and forgot about that. All in all though, nice alpha strike. I would tend to want ro wait for them to activate their master first though, to maybe get close enough for an extra hit, especially masters with (+1) Fast

[mindwarpusa]

yea that always helps and thanks

[poulpox]

Casting Dreamer's Daydream is a little difficult, I prefer starting with 3 DDs, one burried and instead of flying to the opponent I cast Frightening dreams with All my Friends trigger (more reliable than LCB's spell) to unburry LCB and the DD #3 which then companion activate together for the same conclusion as you. It's just that if you fail LCB's spell is out and alone 20" away from his team, that's usually very dangerous

[mindwarpusa]

I know its a risk albeit a small one. Lcb is a master so he can ss it. Also it usually an early round move, especially in the first couple of turns as you only have a few models out, so you would have a full control hand. I've only failed it a few times and that was always late game when I only had 2 ss left. but your right in that it would be a smaller risk i might try it that way next game to see how it feels

Edited August 20, 2011 by mindwarpusa

[Boardgameguy]

I'm gonna try running this Alpha Strike in the next week. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for posting

[Csonti]

I tried hard to find a rules mistake in this alpha strike but failed to find any. Which makes me very sad because I think there is a serious problem with the game if allows these kind of tactics and turn 1 wins. I can't see how could this be fun to play to any player...

Hope the Dreamer's cuddle is coming sooner than later.

[Q'iq'el]

I tried hard to find a rules mistake in this alpha strike but failed to find any. Which makes me very sad because I think there is a serious problem with the game if allows these kind of tactics and turn 1 wins. I can't see how could this be fun to play to any player...

Hope the Dreamer's cuddle is coming sooner than later.

Dreamer is a problem for me too, but you seem to forget Deployment is a tactic too.

You don't have, most of the time at least, to start in a place the opponent can easily alpha-strike in turn 1.

[Csonti]

Dreamer is a problem for me too, but you seem to forget Deployment is a tactic too.

You don't have, most of the time at least, to start in a place the opponent can easily alpha-strike in turn 1.

LCB can attack a model with 2 strikes (and Onslaught some more) that is 31" away form the starting Daydream. Since the table is 36" long and you have a 6" deployment zone... You do the math.

And anyhow, this strike could be made in turn2 too without much problem. Usually you can't win the game sticking to the edge of the table, right?

[demkoenig]

Well you could try to deploy your models so that your most important models would be inaccessible to Chompy and the only options for him to Alpha aren't very good ones.

Example:

If you have McMourning, surround him with Necropunks so that Chompy literally could not fit into melee range.

Another cool thing is that if Chompy is summoned within the melee range of the Necropunks, when Chompy activates he gets slow.

Not to be mean or start a flame war, but now that we've noted that this tactic is troublesome to deal with, instead of harping on whether or not it is broken, why don't we come up with strategies to defeat it in a new thread?

Here is the new thread

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24699

Edited September 10, 2011 by demkoenig

[Q'iq'el]

LCB can attack a model with 2 strikes (and Onslaught some more) that is 31" away form the starting Daydream. Since the table is 36" long and you have a 6" deployment zone... You do the math.

And anyhow, this strike could be made in turn2 too without much problem. Usually you can't win the game sticking to the edge of the table, right?

First of all, I tend to play with terrain and buildings. That gives you hiding areas and spots the Dreamer has to go around. Sure, he can cut short some areas with the Dreamer's flight, but if you have to adjust flight distance to the terrain, you cannot do the optimal movement sequence perfectly.

Secondly, you don't always deploy on the edges - corner deployment does happen as well.

Thirdly, you can shield your valuable models with less valuable ones - in combination with terrain this can be pretty powerful counter.

Then there are more specialized counters - area denial, models with powerful defensive triggers and abilities etc. etc..

I guess my point is that being attacked turn 1 is tough, but not something which cannot be countered, as some players like to portrait it. Everything depends on the table and the crew you play, but there are plenty of things one can do up to stealing initiative with a SS and going first.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Csonti]

I guess my point is that being attacked turn 1 is tough' date=' but not something which cannot be countered, as some players like to portrait it. Everything depends on the table and the crew you play, but there are plenty of things one can do up to stealing initiative with a SS and going first.[/quote']

Sorry, I won't react to this because we have clearly very distant views and I don't want to go into some kind of flame. I'm really happy that you find this perfectly ok. Cheers!

[Calmdown]

These tactics are a bit wrong - a few times they talk about b2b, when replace is not the same as b2b.

Remember this: Dreamer's alpha is 25" in a straight line if he wants 3ap available for chompy. This requires 2 daydreams.

A major problem with Dreamer is that people naturally overmeasure, too (this was why i quit Warmachine but lets not get into that)

I suggest deploying your models 1 and 1/4" away from the edge of your deployment zone if you deploy first; you'll find that most people will do a 25" alpha strike and then try to hit you, after which you can explain why they cant, and suddenly their chompy is down to 2 attacks. If he plans to 'all done' to get put then youll often find that you can mitigate some damage there.

Plan on losing models to Dreamer. The faster you get to his 'base', the less time he has to assassinate with chompy and the more time you have to fight his guys.

Im going to write an anti-dreamer tactica when ive played with him more. Its pretty much the whole reason i bought him. He is beatable, so dont lose heart and particularly dont let the psychological effects of chompy beat you on turn 1. But he is also the best master in the game no doubt, so if youre not outright better than the other guy, expect a tough game.

I know that wasnt much help but i tried

[Fetid Strumpet]

Q'iq'el, the Dreamer can

36" - 6" (deployment zone)

30" - 6" (Daydream Walk)

24" - 6" (places Chompy via Frightening Dream)

Daydream puts Chompy away and Dreamer pops out

18" - 7" (Dreamer's I can Fly Move)

11" - 6" (Dreamer Drops all nightmares off via Frightening dreams at 5" from the board edge)

5" - 3" (Chompy's Melee range)

Remaining space to deploy in that will force Chompy to a least use one action to move to you... 2".

Also your entire crew that is positioned wherever the Dreamer decieded to engage is now in range of almost all abilities on all commonly used nightmares, and in melee or charge range of all melee beasts the dreamer has brought along.

There isn't a place you can deploy where the Dreamer cannot alpha strike you first turn.

[Q'iq'el]

On a flat table, sure.

But if you deploy back to a wall, cliff or a building, with models spread around your "core" (models you want to protect), LCB won't be able to fit in without killing at least 1~2 things (50mm base ensures of that).

If you put your units inside of a building behind closed doors, he'll have to (1)interact to open the doors.

If you make some narrow streets, bridges or terraces, he'll end up not having place to come close, or having only one way in where he engages models you want him to engage, not just anything.

Then you can always place some impassable terrain - a lake, a river, a chasm. Dreams can float over, but won't drop LCB in it.

You play the reasonably full Encounter rules, don't you?

And that's not to mention going first, dropping Shafted marker, putting up Severed Ties or something similar, which makes the entire idea of going into melee turn 1 a bit more dubious.

Then there are crews that can alpha strike themselves and if they steal initiative, they can harm LCB by killing a Daydream or two or, at least, by re-positioning into more defensible positions.

Combine all those into a sound battleplan and you'll end up losing models you can afford to lose and counter striking the opponent.

The most nasty side of this crew is not the turn 1 strike, but the fact that you don't know it is going to be LCB until you deploy. Having to assume a LCB alpha strike is coming each time you face Neverborn sucks as it handles initial advantage to other masters (but not to LCB himself).

The second problem is of more general nature - that you should either play on the tables you have half-set up yourself (thinking about providing cover and safe deployment zone for both sides of the table) or you should play on the tables which were actually designed for Malifaux and provide such defensive areas easily.

I know this is no counter per-se and there are crews which do not require that level of commitment, but at the same time if the crews and abilities are designed with the full Encounter rules in mind, and you don't play full Encounter rules & full Malifaux terrain, you have to expect some things to go wrong. So it happens it is the LCB's alpha strike for many people.

Back when we started playing this game, Ortega's Alpha Strike was considered just as un-counterable - after all they can move wherever they want and shoot any model they please at range and because all of them move, you cannot prevent them from doing it.

Except that forests, houses, walls and fogs people have ample access to now mess it up pretty bad and it doesn't work that well anymore.

[Math Mathonwy]

If you have McMourning, surround him with Necropunks so that Chompy literally could not fit into melee range.

3" melee range. You'd need a lot of Necropunks to cover McMourning.

Q'iq'el, the Dreamer can

36" - 6" (deployment zone)

30" - 6" (Daydream Walk)

24" - 6" (places Chompy via Frightening Dream)

Remember that LCB's base size is 50mm (Frightening dream isn't completely within 6" but within 6" , right? Don't have the book here)

Daydream puts Chompy away and Dreamer pops out

Again, isn't this putting Dreamer into BtB with LCB, so 30mm extra movement?

18" - 7" (Dreamer's I can Fly Move)

11" - 6" (Dreamer Drops all nightmares off via Frightening dreams at 5" from the board edge)

And 50mm again

5" - 3" (Chompy's Melee range)

So, in total it's 130mm extra, so a bit over 5 inches. Or did I miss something?

[Q'iq'el]

3" melee range. You'd need a lot of Necropunks to cover McMourning.

Yup, but you don't need to stack them around him base to base. They can be in a half-ring around him, 1~2" apart, with other models within the ring too, and there simply will be no place to put LCB within 3" of McMourning. Especially, if you combine that formation with the table edge or some suitable piece of terrain.

[Adran]

The most nasty side of this crew is not the turn 1 strike, but the fact that you don't know it is going to be LCB until you deploy. Having to assume a LCB alpha strike is coming each time you face Neverborn sucks as it handles initial advantage to other masters (but not to LCB himself).

Surely you know your opponents crew before deployment, after all you need to know the opponents crew before you pick schemes.

You might not know if he is deploying capable for a turn one strike, but you will know if the crew supports the possibility.

[karn987]

These tactics are a bit wrong - a few times they talk about b2b, when replace is not the same as b2b.

Remember this: Dreamer's alpha is 25" in a straight line if he wants 3ap available for chompy. This requires 2 daydreams.

A major problem with Dreamer is that people naturally overmeasure, too (this was why i quit Warmachine but lets not get into that)

I suggest deploying your models 1 and 1/4" away from the edge of your deployment zone if you deploy first; you'll find that most people will do a 25" alpha strike and then try to hit you, after which you can explain why they cant, and suddenly their chompy is down to 2 attacks. If he plans to 'all done' to get put then youll often find that you can mitigate some damage there.

Plan on losing models to Dreamer. The faster you get to his 'base', the less time he has to assassinate with chompy and the more time you have to fight his guys.

Im going to write an anti-dreamer tactica when ive played with him more. Its pretty much the whole reason i bought him. He is beatable, so dont lose heart and particularly dont let the psychological effects of chompy beat you on turn 1. But he is also the best master in the game no doubt, so if youre not outright better than the other guy, expect a tough game.

I know that wasnt much help but i tried

Be interested to see what you come up with when your done. It's something I've been meaning ot get to for a long while now, so someone else doing it is perfect.

Submit that information to the Wiki Calmdown and we'll see if it measures up (Basically PM it to me or pm me a link to it and I'll hand it off to those it needs to go to). It will be looked over by several veteran players, and put to the test. If it measures up, we'll add it to the How to Beat section. If you really want to prove your points and give back to the community take this challenge and lets see what you've got.

Edited September 12, 2011 by karn987

[Calmdown]

Be interested to see what you come up with when your done. It's something I've been meaning ot get to for a long while now, so someone else doing it is perfect.

Submit that information to the Wiki

I'll post it on the forum, you'll be welcome to copy it if you like.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Calmdown

[psychocamel]

None of the abilities in this entire chain place a model B2B.

Actually...

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19972

- ERRATA:"Calm Nightmares" The Dreamer should be Placed in base contact with the buried Lord Chompy Bits before it is removed from the table

ERRATA: "Nightmare Friend" Lord Chompy Bits should be Placed in base contact with the buried Dreamer before it is removed from the table

EDIT: Also, according to the book, page 38, Replace means place that model in base to base contact with the model it is replacing, then remove the replaced model from play.

This is the current printed book, which you can download in the links given in this forum. So unless there's been a big change to the rules somewhere...

Edited September 12, 2011 by psychocamel

[Calmdown]

Stuff

I stand corrected.

My Dreamer just got buffed

[psychocamel]

hehe congrats