Sculpting female models

[nilus]

Have you read the book 3 fluff. Perdita and LJ get a lot of depth. Perditas Avatar story is particularly telling of where her character might be going. They are just not pretty girls with boobs and guns.

[Math Mathonwy]

Apologies for provoking your Ire, for what it is worth I was simply seeking to add to Dolomyte's list.

No no, I should be the one apologizing. In retrospect, I sounded awfully aggressive there. I realize that this has been a very verbose thread and reading everything everyone has written is not a given. Furthermore, since Sybelle is the ugliest woman in Malifaux, adding her to the list seems very tempting.

So, to iterate what I said before (and further refining and clarifying the thesis), belles are a bad example of diversity since 'ugly' is an intrinsic characteristic in the concept of zombies.

Similarly, Showgirls should be exempted from the discussion as 'beautiful' is a quality associated with cabaret dancers.

Now, as for the other female modes, 'beautiful' is not an intrinsic characteristic of a blind-folded sword mistress. Or of hammer wielding worker girl. Or of a homeless rat slave.

Now, these can be beautiful and there is nothing wrong with that. But when every one of them is, that's when I would like to see more variety.

So, in closing, my apologies for my previous answer to you. And hopefully I clarified my point here.

[Math Mathonwy]

Men arent the only ones, I pointed out models to you that dont look good, you can keep ignoring them, but your wrong for doing so.

You pointed out Abuela who I acknowledged and then two more who aren't ugly in any shape or form.

Molly the model is a bit thinner then molly the artwork, I will give you the model does not look chubby.

She has a dress with a high waistline. Haven't you ever seen such garments? You think everyone wearing such is fat?

Im going to stand alone on this ledge apparently, but people dont like to paint and field ugly models. No one wants to see a rampaging herd of fat people racing across the battlefield at them, they would laugh and think its a stupid game.

Good thing that no one suggested anything even remotely to that effect, then.

Also, why do you want to see a crippled woman, thats kind of messed up.

What the hell, dude?

You use the term hot far too frequently for my tastes.

You trolling?

My overall point is that if your offended by cheesecake women and attractiveness, miniature gaming is probably not for you.

I dare say that I've been in this hobby longer than you, played more games than you and painted more minis than. Yes, without knowing anything about you. So yeah, miniature gaming is definitely for me.

I appreciate your right to speak up about it, but people like me will come out of the woodwork to defend the fact that we dont want to paint ugly models. I would not buy them, no matter how good they are.

So you hate Abuela and Zoraida based on their looks?

I don't play minis games to be sexually stimulated. I thought no one did. But suddenly I'm not so sure any more, unfortunately.

[Dolomyte]

No no, I should be the one apologizing. In retrospect, I sounded awfully aggressive there. I realize that this has been a very verbose thread and reading everything everyone has written is not a given. Furthermore, since Sybelle is the ugliest woman in Malifaux, adding her to the list seems very tempting.

So, to iterate what I said before (and further refining and clarifying the thesis), belles are a bad example of diversity since 'ugly' is an intrinsic characteristic in the concept of zombies.

Similarly, Showgirls should be exempted from the discussion as 'beautiful' is a quality associated with cabaret dancers.

Now, as for the other female modes, 'beautiful' is not an intrinsic characteristic of a blind-folded sword mistress. Or of hammer wielding worker girl. Or of a homeless rat slave.

Now, these can be beautiful and there is nothing wrong with that. But when every one of them is, that's when I would like to see more variety.

So, in closing, my apologies for my previous answer to you. And hopefully I clarified my point here.

My arguement to that is that Justice and perdita, in the fluff, are both actively fighting alot, so they would be in shape. Justice is wearing a corset, which would explain her breasts being pushed up.

Also, though purely speculative, the statue of justice in the real world is an attractive woman. I think justice is supposed to beautiful (the concept)

Rasputina is cute, but kind of skinny. I would not say she is cheesecake.

The victorias are mercanaries, and fit for the same reason as perdita and lady justice.

Lilith is a dryad, and in all forms of literature and mythology dryads are really attractive. Nekima is liliths sister, so she is vis a vis part dryad.

I am not a pandora person myself, but she looks average.

[Chucklemonkey]

You certainly have and I must admit to missing the one main time that you had explained it earlier in the thread. I do understand your point and am pleased to see that you exclude the showgirls for the same reason as Sybelle.

I do agree with Dolomyde however that better looking models are going to be bigger in game sellers. Despite this I do think that Wyrd do ok on the body range diversity front. Granted some ranges are more diverse, but at least there are a few models that we have been able to discuss on this front.

I mean, whilst I love the look of Corvus Belli's Infinity females we would have no examples of diverse body shapes to discuss there. (Unless I have missed them, but I don't think so)

EDIT: I should really have quoted Math from the top of the page, the discussion seems to have moved on since I started this post.

[Dolomyte]

You pointed out Abuela who I acknowledged and then two more who aren't ugly in any shape or form.

Alice is not attractive.

She has a dress with a high waistline. Haven't you ever seen such garments? You think everyone wearing such is fat?

I did not say she was fat, I said she was chubby, her arms look chubby in the artwork. There is a difference between fat and chubby, its about 70 pounds.

Good thing that no one suggested anything even remotely to that effect, then.

then what is the point of this thread? why are we even discussing it, do you want to slap wyrd on the wrist with a ruler and say "BAD GAMING COMPANY, BAD, NO MORE CHEESECAKE".

What the hell, dude?

You asked why there is not a crippled woman, I opined that its because people dont feel comfortable attacking cripples, real life or in games. I dont shoot old people in fallout, even if their shop has really good items that I cant afford, I dont like killing hoffman.

You trolling?

Are you?

I dare say that I've been in this hobby longer than you, played more games than you and painted more minis than. Yes, without knowing anything about you. So yeah, miniature gaming is definitely for me.

I appreciate the "I've been doing this longer then you and more then you debate" but I'd much rather we just skip to taking pictures of our D*cks and posting them on here for people to judge whose is bigger.

So you hate Abuela and Zoraida based on their looks?

No, I love Zoraida and Abuela, I think they are beautiful sculpts. You dont need a model to be attractive to be beautiful, they are not ugly for the sake of being politically correct.

I don't play minis games to be sexually stimulated. I thought no one did. But suddenly I'm not so sure any more, unfortunately.

Again, no one is playing to be sexually stimulated, but people dont like to paint ugly models. for example, and I know this will elicit a groan from some people. Avatar Marcus and Lelu. Ugly models. Don't want to use them.

[Math Mathonwy]

I do agree with Dolomyde however that better looking models are going to be bigger in game sellers.

But only in the case of female models?

Despite this I do think that Wyrd do ok on the body range diversity front. Granted some ranges are more diverse, but at least there are a few models that we have been able to discuss on this front.

Comparing the minis where there is a female and a male option, the difference tends to be rather astounding.

My main point is that Wyrd men have a great amount of fun diversity. I wish that the women had as well.

I mean, whilst I love the look of Corvus Belli's Infinity females we would have no examples of diverse body shapes to discuss there. (Unless I have missed them, but I don't think so)

To be fair, Infinity males are all uniformly trim and handsome as well. It kinda goes with the genre, more so than with Fantasy minis.

But yeah, I'm not saying that other companies are that much better than Wyrd here. And I do agree with your earlier point about this being something that affects the whole society and every medium. But I feel that there have been advances made and I keep hoping that Wyrd might at the forefront of such a change, perhaps.

[Math Mathonwy]

@Dolomyte (can't bother quoting as quoting those bold-tags is very time consuming)

You seem to have switched the debate to somewhere completely else compared where it started at. The quality of the sculpts was never an issue in this thread and seems to come straight out of the blue and cast your previous comments in a really, really weird light. So I'm not at all sure what good would answering to you further yield.

Finally, I made the comment on having played with minis longer than you purely because you suggested that this was not the right hobby for me. Well, also because I felt comfortable in making that claim (insofar as I honestly believe so).

[Dolomyte]

@Dolomyte (can't bother quoting as quoting those bold-tags is very time consuming)

You seem to have switched the debate to somewhere completely else compared where it started at. The quality of the sculpts was never an issue in this thread and seems to come straight out of the blue and cast your previous comments in a really, really weird light. So I'm not at all sure what good would answering to you further yield.

Finally, I made the comment on having played with minis longer than you purely because you suggested that this was not the right hobby for me. Well, also because I felt comfortable in making that claim (insofar as I honestly believe so).

The quality of the sculpts has always been the issue,

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Dark%20Heaven%20Legends/latest/03554

Is a sculpt that I am guessing you would have an issue with, large, unnatural breasts, attractive body (for a mermaid). I also do not like this sculpt. I think the model is of poor quality. I would be ok with the mermaid having breasts, but with no clothing to position them (such as a bustier) they should be laying flatter.) In addition, the sculpt is just not very good.

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/werner%20klocke/sku-down/30004#detail/30004_p_af_1

This is also a sculpt, based on your previous posts, that I think you would dislike, as she is showing a ton of cleavage (though not alot of anything else due to armor) for apparently no reason. She also has what appears to be large breasts for a vampire) I however like this sculpt, as the armor gives an explanation for the breasts being pushed up, vampires are sultry (just like dryads are), and its a really good sculpt.

Edit - To further clarify, the second sculpt is more attractive, I would rather field that on a table then I would the first. If the model was supposed to be nosferatu and was that attractive, I would think it was a $$$$$$$$ty sculpt and not want to field it. Lady J, Perdita, Et al, should be attractive.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Dolomyte

[CannibalBob]

One thing to note about a lot of the models from book 1 is that they were made as models to paint before there necessarily was a game. It looks to me that Wyrd sorta shoe-horned their existing models into the game where they could when they first designed it.

But I think it is also worth mentioning, again and again and again, that this is a Viktorian setting and that involves a lot of uncomfortable clothing in the name of fashion - such as corsets and bustiers. And I have to wonder about those people claiming that natural breasts do not form the bulge on the top. They do when outfits are designed to boost and shape cleavage - which many outfits are meant to do. They need to wear something to support and prevent unwanted movement - its not like they had sports-bras in the Viktorian era.

[Math Mathonwy]

The quality of the sculpts has always been the issue

No. It hasn't been in my postings, nor in yours (nor in anyone else's) except for these last two of yours where you plucked it seemingly randomly. Check back a few posts if you don't believe me.

Suffice it to say that you're tilting at strawmen here and not addressing the points I've raised, nor answering my question about your previous statements.

[Dolomyte]

What did I not answer for you. People dont want to paint fat normal women. People dont wait to paint crippled women. Its a fantasy game.

does that answer it plainly enough for you? I know you don't understand that, but its life. Deal with it.

You want wyrd to be the first miniature company to shuck the mold of objectifying women (and men), even if they did, no one would care, the thousands of people who play malifaux are a just a tiny tiny droplet of water in the ocean of the world where women, and men, are judged looks first, everything else second.

[Jonas Albrecht]

What did I not answer for you. People dont want to paint fat normal women. People dont wait to paint crippled women. Its a fantasy game.

does that answer it plainly enough for you? I know you don't understand that, but its life. Deal with it.

You want wyrd to be the first miniature company to shuck the mold of objectifying women (and men), even if they did, no one would care, the thousands of people who play malifaux are a just a tiny tiny droplet of water in the ocean of the world where women, and men, are judged looks first, everything else second.

This is your mindset, Dolomyte. Your experiences may allow you to believe these views are universal, but they are not.

[Dolomyte]

This is your mindset, Dolomyte. Your experiences may allow you to believe these views are universal, but they are not.

That is a statement I 100% cannot argue against Jonas. In my limited years of playing Miniature games (20), I have never seen someone play an army with conversions showing realistic people.

I've seen people make realistic characters in the occasional white wolf roleplaying game, but thats the extent of it. I've got just as much time watching television, movies, and reading books and novels. Occasionally you will see an exception (such as my big fat greek wedding, bridesmaids, any queen latifah movie) but by and large, attractive, fit women is the standard.

It seems to have been portrayed that way throughout history. I don't ever forsee that changing.

Edit - thats not saying I dont find queen latifah attractive, I personally do, but she's pleasently plump.

[Silveri]

But I think it is also worth mentioning, again and again and again, that this is a Viktorian setting and that involves a lot of uncomfortable clothing in the name of fashion - such as corsets and bustiers.

Agreed. I never meant to question that. It's part of the goddamn appeal.

And I have to wonder about those people claiming that natural breasts do not form the bulge on the top. They do when outfits are designed to boost and shape cleavage - which many outfits are meant to do.

Yes, they form a bulge, but not a deep crease at the top especially like the one in Pandora alt. paintjob. I again suggest trying this out with a live pair of big breasts.

They need to wear something to support and prevent unwanted movement - its not like they had sports-bras in the Viktorian era.

Actually, they most likely would have had a tight-fitting corset that covers and supports also the breasts. For reference, check out BBC:s version of Pride and Prejudice. But this is nitpicking. I never complained about the corsets.

[Dolomyte]

Agreed. I never meant to question that. It's part of the goddamn appeal.

Yes, they form a bulge, but not a deep crease at the top especially like the one in Pandora alt. paintjob. I again suggest trying this out with a live pair of big breasts.

Actually, they most likely would have had a tight-fitting corset that covers and supports also the breasts. For reference, check out BBC:s version of Pride and Prejudice. But this is nitpicking. I never complained about the corsets.

I've never been a fan of painting the deep crease either. but thats more a painting issue then an issue with the model. This one guy at our LGS use to paint that crease on models that were designed to be flat chested, it was really stupid.

[CannibalBob]

Yes, they form a bulge, but not a deep crease at the top especially like the one in Pandora alt. paintjob. I again suggest trying this out with a live pair of big breasts.

I have many times. My girlfriend does not have fake breasts, but when she dresses up to go out her bra and blouses force her cleavage up and it does end up shaped like that. Many outfits that boost and magnify the shape of breasts do that. And the victorian & renaissance era clothing seems to have emphasized this even more.

[CannibalBob]

When it comes to painting the "crease" that is something to take up with the artist more than the miniature sculptor. But it has always seemed to me to be just one of those stylized painting choices. It is a bit cartoony, but it is meant to bring out and over-emphasize detail. I don't find it to be much different from non-metallic metals or source-lighting - which are also cartoony techniques meant to evoke a look through over-exaggeration.

And if we are really going to complain about the "objectifying" that goes on from creating a visual focus on the breasts by painting an exaggerated shadow at the top why are people not complaining that it is a standard on female miniatures to paint make-up? Perdita in her fluff is described as strikingly lithe and beatiful, but her personality is very direct, practical, and focused. She is all business. I highly doubt she spends a lot of time doing her make-up before hunting Nephilim.

The same goes for most of the women in this setting. The only ones I can really imagine spending time on make-up would be the Showgirls and possibly Rusty Alice (she is a teen-ager after all). Yet most female models have eye-shadow and lip-stick - and sometimes some rouge. It seems to be a trend in most fantasy/sci-fi artwork and miniature games. In general it makes the models more attractive - which I assume is the point.

[Rhaksha]

Just my two Penn'orth; I would so shoot the chick in the wheelchair.

[CannibalBob]

Just my two Penn'orth; I would so shoot the chick in the wheelchair.

I would just build all my terrain with various levels and put in no handicap wheelchair access.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

The unfortunate truth is all men desire the shapely figure that is ideal for a genetically good spouse.(if they are of the straightish persuasions, and even then they still have a tendency towards the "Ideal" woman.) So large Breasts for feeding more than one child past 3 and shapely wide hips for an easier child birth. And the skinny hairless legs and arm pits becuase it makes us think they are younger than their age which is good for a mate becuase of a more likely chance they will live till the children are adults.

All the crazy ideas about sexual attraction can be traced back to our genetic desire to find a good mate. Even if you swear up and down you hate kids it is still the truth of the matter.

But don't worry becuase women are also looking for qualities that make a good mate too. It just happens a number of their's revolve around providing for the kids.(This is where someone busts out with Gold Digger.)

Edited August 12, 2011 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Math Mathonwy]

What did I not answer for you. People dont want to paint fat normal women. People dont wait to paint crippled women. Its a fantasy game.

But they want to paint fat, crippled, and ugly men?

does that answer it plainly enough for you? I know you don't understand that, but its life. Deal with it.

Are you fifteen or something? Because I refuse to believe than an adult would spew crap like that.

You want wyrd to be the first miniature company to shuck the mold of objectifying women (and men), even if they did, no one would care, the thousands of people who play malifaux are a just a tiny tiny droplet of water in the ocean of the world where women, and men, are judged looks first, everything else second.

...and this is why you don't vote, right (when you are old enough to do so)? As your vote is an insignificant drop in the ocean of other votes.

The unfortunate truth is all men desire the shapely figure that is ideal for a genetically good spouse.(if they are of the straightish persuasions, and even then they still have a tendency towards the "Ideal" woman.) So large Breasts for feeding more than one child past 3 and shapely wide hips for an easier child birth. And the skinny hairless legs and arm pits becuase it makes us think they are younger than their age which is good for a mate becuase of a more likely chance they will live till the children are adults.

All the crazy ideas about sexual attraction can be traced back to our genetic desire to find a good mate. Even if you swear up and down you hate kids it is still the truth of the matter.

But don't worry becuase women are also looking for qualities that make a good mate too. It just happens a number of their's revolve around providing for the kids.(This is where someone busts out with Gold Digger.)

Whoah, got a citation for all that? Since beauty standards changing over the centuries kinda, you know, disproves the whole "we are nothing but slaves to our genetics"-type of stuff at that level.

The unchanging parts of beauty standards have more to do with balance (both sides of the face and body matching the other) and being average (i.e., no abnormalities) than wide hips and a skinny, young look which haven't always been in vogue (and are sorta mutually at odds with one another).

[Radium]

Since beauty standards changing over the centuries kinda, you know, disproves the whole "we are nothing but slaves to our genetics"-type of stuff at that level.

Yes, beauty standards change over time, but recent studies have shown the fit woman ideal is always there.

But I have to agree with some of the guys over here, people (both men and women) prefer looking at nice looking people, let's be honest. And in fantasy settings there are more male stereotypes around that can be ugly and still work as a miniature.

And more importantly: for a female miniature to look like a woman, certain aspects have to be exaggerated a bit, such as the female bits and the body shape. A miniature of an average woman with small breasts in practical clothing would pretty much look like guy. You can't sculpt all the subtle differences between man and woman on a small scale like the minis we like.

[Chucklemonkey]

Yes, beauty standards change over time, but recent studies have shown the fit woman ideal is always there.

Can you point me in the direction of these studies as that differs from my understanding, and am genuinely interested now.

I was under the belief that the ideal size of a woman changed through the course of history - and cultures, as indeed there are still cultures where bigger women are considered more attractive - and that facial symmetry was the key to being considered beautiful.

Histrorical conventions have also changed for men but thats a different story entirely.

[Jonas Albrecht]

for a female miniature to look like a woman, certain aspects have to be exaggerated a bit, such as the female bits and the body shape.

This canard gets hammered out a lot, and quite frankly, it doesn't track. While sculpters may feel that noticable breasts are necessary to portray a female character, it does not give license to exagerration after a certain, quickly reached point.