Seamus - What am I doing wrong?

[Jamesbob]

Me and some of my buddies went and picked up Malifaux together about 3 weeks ago. I picked up the Redchapel Gang box set, a Convict Gunslinger, Copycat Killer, and Bete Noire.

I read the tactica and I'm not sure if it's dated or if I'm just not getting it but I've lost against the Ortegas, Kirai, and Zoraida so far. It seems like at the end of turn 5 I am usually 90-100% wiped off the board.

I don't want to be a whiner I'm just curious if anyone could give me some helpful advice on how not to get wiped out. I kept separating Seamus from my Belles and I was sure that was my issue but last game I tried to keep everyone together vs Kirai and found that I was stuck in melee for a majority of the game, preventing me from doing my strategy (Shared Claim Jump). Does anyone competitive use Seamus?

[Buhallin]

I play with Seamus quite a bit, and think he's quite solid. It's hard to know what your specific problems are, but here are some general thoughts which may or may not repeat the tactica:

- His core box is light on damage potential. Bete is a good choice, but arrives late. Punks are a good option to provide some hitting power as well, and a lot of people use Crooked Men to screw with people.

- Belles are all about the Lure. Don't be shy about chain-Luring a model completely out of position to jump it solo. Save Seamus to activate late/last after a target's been hit with 3 or 4 Lures. Look for fast targets for the Lure - Coryphee are scary good, but so blindingly fast you can put them out of position quickly.

- Undead Psychosis + Trail of Fear = Win. Obviously not much good against ranged stuff, but incredibly effective against anything that needs to be in melee.

- I'd pick up the Grave Spirit instead of the Copycat. The little guy's cute, but he's not consistent as damage output, and the +2 Armor from the Grave Spirit can be huge.

The Ortegas and Kirai are both outstanding masters and sets. I loathe Perdita with a special brand of dark hate. Seamu can be a bit tricky because of the low damage output - you really have to coordinate the positional and debuff options of the Belles with your limited damage dealers - but he's a very solid master.

[osoi]

Okay I'm not sure how long this will be but I do play Seamus quite competitively and have had a lot of success with him.

First thing I will ask is how much terrain are you playing with yes the Ortegas will wipe you off the table if there isnt enough terrain, Malifaux is a terrain intensive game. Secondly are you focusing on your strategies and schemes or going for a slogfest?

as far as crew composition I play Seamus as a very control orientated master that can adapt quite well to most situations. I tend to only take 1-2 Belles in my starting crew and find that serves me well. The Hanged is a beautiful minion for Seamus and often when I am bringing him along I bring the Grave Spirit along for the ride too as a Spirit with Armour 2 is a beautiful thing especially when you already have 7Wds too, it let the Hanged be an absolute tank and perform to the best of his capabilities.

Sybelle is a good utility piece and it varies on what I am up against as to when I take her. I used to use Bete a lot but that has declined a lot for me and I usually fill her spot with Jack Daw or a Hanged. Another minion of note is the Onryo who hurts the enemy as they shoot you is a spirit and can help overcome one of your main weaknesses a way to deal with Immune to Influence and Armour.

vs the Ortegas

I like The Hanged, Grave Spirit, 1-2 Belles, maybe a Crooked Man and Onryo.

The idea behind this set up is for Seamus to activate relatively early and pop up Trail of Fear giving the Ortegas -2Wp (essentially knocking off the bonus to Stubborn) you can then Lure them a lot easier. Lure and either shafted markers from a Crooked Man or Following up with a hit from the Hanged with Whisper from Beyond or Hangmans Knot further taking wounds off them and manipultiing their position on the board. Whisper from Beyond has the added benefit of stopping that model form being healed in any form for the rest of the game too.

The Onryo is there to make use of being a Spirit and also Immediate Revenge and hand out Immediate Revenge to the Hanged as well, making them hesitant to actually shoot you. Seamus is there for the debuffs but also I would almost be casting Live for Pain more than shooting your Flintlock for damage as your Ca is higher the your Cb and he heals the amount of Wds he inflicted, the range is only 6" but thats the sweet spot that Seamus really thrives in.

vs Kirai

Sybelle, 1-2 Belles, 1-2 Hanged

This crew will be as close to as mobile as Kirai but more durable. Sybelle can give you movement manipulation with Call Belle plus has a nice ranged spell of Shriek so you get your full damage off, plus she is quite durable. The Hanged are there for the reasons I mentioned above plus Hangmans Knot works like Lure but with a damage profile and once again as it is a spell the Spirits take full damage. As for the role Seamus will play he i sthere to be at the center of it all and control the flow, I would Live for Pain again more often than the Flintlock where possible as you have a high Ca and it will hit harder and more reliably than the Flintlock, he'll also use Undead Psychosis a bit to keep the melee orientated Kirai crew away from your models which can also be quite funny. Undead Psychosis will help a lot in scenarios such as claim jump.

I know I have only touched on a little of what can be done with Seamus and am happy to help out with more info or tips if you want as I dont think you want to read too much of a wall of text.

There is more on the Pull My Finger wiki entry that I wrote as well.

[Cornelious1424]

I have found that focusing on your objectives is the key to playing Seamus. He is not a killy master, so you can't play him that way. Never, ever, ever underestimate Undead Psychosis, either. When used in the right situation you can shut down an enemy crew for a turn or two. It allows you to be very aggressive with Seamus and the rest of your undead, knowing your opponent has no choice but to stay 3" away from undead models. Seamus does take some practice to get the hang of, but when you do he is really rewarding to play!!

[merces]

had the same problem when i started playing.

every single game out-tabled.

so here's the things i learned.

* read the cards 100 times, i always forgot to many abbilities in the beginning. (extra movement for belles, heal and draw 2 cards, ....)

* play a couple simple setups: seamus, 3 belles, sybelle, copycat.

* don't rush in from turn 1, see what the opponent is doing and anticipate on that, to many times i give ortegas a shooting fairy

* so get cover with seamus, he can take a serious beating, but not from 4-5 models shooting in 1 activation.

* my last tournament i used a lot of "focus" on my shot.

it worked very well. getting seamus shot on a neutral damage flip. en hey, if you happen to have a red joker in hand for damage, thats a dead opponent. even dare to put a SS in for the attack flip.

* i personally wouln't take belle or the hanged in my first games. i prefer 2 lower cost models instead of 1 higher.

* and ofcourse, a little help of fate and keeping your 10crow+ cards in hand can bring 4-5 belles extra in game.

hope it helps.

grtz merces

[Talishko]

I think as Merces says there is one important thing with him: don't rush in on turn 1. I've played him for quite long and had similar problems at first. You need to know what your ideal distance is from the other crews and how to split yours. This is just a generic rundown but this is how I would normally use the crew:

At the beginning (1-2) I usually try to keep the belles around 6" ahead of Seamus so he gets to buff them and you can get to your objectives quickly. Board control is crucial here, as I said you have to spread out just enough to have your options open for your objectives but have to bear in mind what your opponent's threat range is. I usually activate him last.

Mid game (3-4) I walk Seamus up mid board to debuff enemy WP and make the belles / undead psychosis / terrifying more effective. Concentrate on objectives! At this point I still try and keep most models within 6" of him so he gets the heal and +control card if anything dies. Depending on the situation he starts using his gun here to get down or weaken tough models. He usually activates first here.

Towards the end of the game (5-6) I usually have him wounded so he uses spell for hitting (that heals him back) instead of the gun. I try and go for any objectives that I didn't get yet, or protect the ones I have to. I kind of don't mind leaving him on his own here, if the opponent wants to kill him they will have to get a heavy hitter there which frees up your other models and you can finish / ensure your objectives and/or screw up your opponents. Seamus activates wherever I need him. If i'm still using undead psychosis to freeze the opponent's crew he would activate early, if I just want to draw the opponent on him he activates mid turn, and if I want to take down the odd annoying models before the game ends or want to keep him as a threat he doesn't activate until the end.

This is probably a lot to digest, and can still change from situation to situation. Main thing is: play him a lot and learn all the abilities you're using. He takes a bit of getting used to, but he is a lot of fun.

[Shank Seamus!]

Can seamus take grave spirit? The guy in my group takes him but says as seamus isn't undead he can't like and get the armour... Are we missing something?

[Soundwave]

Can seamus take grave spirit? The guy in my group takes him but says as seamus isn't undead he can't like and get the armour... Are we missing something?

He can hire him, but it can't like to him. It does great at linking to Sybelle or a Hanged, though!

[Calmdown]

Me and some of my buddies went and picked up Malifaux together about 3 weeks ago. I picked up the Redchapel Gang box set, a Convict Gunslinger, Copycat Killer, and Bete Noire.

I read the tactica and I'm not sure if it's dated or if I'm just not getting it but I've lost against the Ortegas, Kirai, and Zoraida so far. It seems like at the end of turn 5 I am usually 90-100% wiped off the board.

I don't want to be a whiner I'm just curious if anyone could give me some helpful advice on how not to get wiped out. I kept separating Seamus from my Belles and I was sure that was my issue but last game I tried to keep everyone together vs Kirai and found that I was stuck in melee for a majority of the game, preventing me from doing my strategy (Shared Claim Jump). Does anyone competitive use Seamus?

Seamus is definitely competitive - if you're familiar with gaming 'tiers', he's about tier 1.5. Thus he should be able to beat anything in the game, although he's not a power master compared to some of the big ones.

I would say that Seamus is pretty hard to play, especially compared to Perdita and Zoraida. Kirai is also hard to play but is so powerful (Tier 1) she'll give you tough games all the time as long as the player knows the basics.

As others have said, a common mistake a lot of people make when starting out in Malifaux is not enough terrain. In a terrain-light environment, Ortegas will wipe you every game. Also, Ortegas are, for new players, one of the strongest crews - huge damage output and very easy to point and shoot. You'll find that as you learn to play, their effectiveness diminishes a lot as your crew will get better while theirs will stay the same.

Zoraida is easy to play and win with because she is so passively good. She's very hard to kill and so very forgiving, her abilities just work and do nasty stuff, and her box crew is also very forgiving and completes objectives easily which Seamus' does not. Zoraida is also on the border of Tier 1/1.5 competitively so she's naturally a powerful master. Again, as you learn more you'll get closer to her level.

Kirai; well, you can read the tacticas here. Basically she is amazing and will always give you trouble even when you know how she works, so that is magnified right now as you're new.

Seamus is firstly hard to play particularly out of the box because his crew has such poor damage potential and the most important thing when you're new is being able to damage things in simple ways. The crews you mentioned are all very good out of the box, which will put you at a disadvantage.

-People tend to pick up Bete Noir and a lot of advice on this forum will tell you the same; my advice is different, she's a bad bad model. She dies incredibly easily, she essentially reduces your hand by 1 high card while she's out, and her damage output isn't even that good. Replace her ASAP with a Hanged or a Dead Rider (Hanged is the better choice, and cheaper in cash, but Dead Rider is awesome and potentially easier to use).

-Sybelle is a very questionable model. I don't take her ever (although I summon her with Molly - forget that for now though). She's not really a Belle in terms of she doesn't lure very well, her utility is niche, and for 6 points she isn't an amazing combatant. She is tough for a 6 point model, but the crew already has plenty of that. You could save points here and spend it on better stuff.

-Convict Gunslinger is a fine choice. There are better once you learn the game and play your crew in a different way, but for straight up fighting he's a gem. Never forget that his pistols are paired and that he functions equally as well in melee as shooting.

-Copycat Killer isn't very good. It looks good for its damage line but pretty much always misses. Save your 2 points and your totem slot; either spend the points on minions or, even better, get a Grave Spirit. You can use it for armour buffs if you wish, or, you can kill it yourself for a corpse counter and then use it to summon a Belle (this kind of 'take models, kill them yourself' is a good way to save on soulstones in your list in exchange for spending actions killing your own models and summoning stuff. Canine remains are good for this tactic also)

Once you improve your list a bit, Seamus is secondly hard to play when you're new simply because he isn't a simple point and shoot master, he has lots of comboing abilities. These are the things that you will have read about in the tactica in depth. A very general guide to an average Seamus turn (general guides in Malifaux are pretty bad as a rule, but when you're new it can help of course) would look something like this:

-decide at the start of the turn whether you want to activate Seamus early or late. This will dictate your turn. If he is in a position to do so, always activate early and use Undead Psychosis in a way as to waste the AP of opposing models, Trail of Fear/Face of Death bombs, etc, as I describe below. If you aren't going to act early, you're probably going to want to act late after your Belles lure stuff, meaning you're less likely to be using control abilities (because enemy models will have already gone) and you're more likely to be moving, shooting stuff, hitting them with bag o' tools, etc.

-For his 0 action, always use Trail of Fear when you're going to do a lot of WP duels (most of the time). No Escape is of niche use to trap important models or if you feel you don't need ToF up and his Belle companion ability you shouldn't use much. And remember, even if stuff is out of range of ToF to start, you're likely going to be dragging enemies into the ToF at some point with your Belles.

-Trail of Fear + Face of Death means most things in the game are going to run away and lose their turn if they start within 4" of you, and are likely to do the same if charging you or getting near you. Always drop this 'bomb' when you can. If you are within 4" of one model they'll likely cheat over the fear value; but if you can catch multiple, they'd need to generally burns lots of high cards (9/10/11) for most people

-Seamus' gun is awesome; try to shoot it every turn, but if you can do more awesome stuff with your AP by using control abilities or if you really need healing, use those instead. Don't be lured in by the big gun damage numbers all the time! Remember Seamus has a cast of 7 but only shoots at a 5.

-Never forget to draw your control cards and heal wounds when models die! This is one of his best abilities but as it's passive you tend to forget it.

-Seamus is tough as nails, one of the straight-up toughest masters in the game, so dont be afraid to get him involved so you can be in range for card draws, drop terror bombs, etc. Just be aware that everything can die if you let your opponents focus too much stuff on it (watch for Ortega activating their whole gang at once and blowing him up). You can also use this as a lure though; if people try to kill him, and you burn a lot of SS to keep him alive, you can often heal him by a lot next turn and punish them in return with your unmolested models.

Good luck and happy mad hattering.

[cromusz]

There is some great info in this thread! I need to go pickup the grave spirit.

[Sezar]

One of the best tips could hand here is that Lure doesn't make you move yogur target straight to the caster, it just has to end it's Lure movement closer to the caster as it was, meaning that you can position your targets (either enemies or friends) to the spot that serves you best. Once you learn to abuse your Lures things will never be the same to your opponents.

[thescale]

This thread has inspired me to start Seamus

I was planning on getting him, a pack of Belles and the Molly box when it comes out, but that still isn't much damage output.

Does anyone have info on the Dead Doxy?

[Calmdown]

This thread has inspired me to start Seamus

I was planning on getting him, a pack of Belles and the Molly box when it comes out, but that still isn't much damage output.

Does anyone have info on the Dead Doxy?

Buy the Seamus box, you'll want Sybelle too especially if you have Molly. You'll also want a totem for Seamus (Grave Spirit = best!) and Molly's totem too.

Dead Doxy is a 'combat Belle' apparently and by the sounds of her rules you're going to want at least one since she can do some funky stuff switching around with Belles in combat or who die or something.

The best models to increase the crew's damage output are Hanged/Dead Rider/Rogue Necromancy imho. I haven't used the latter two a lot, I prefer the Hanged, but they'd do the business for you. Punk Zombies are also awesome and very underused. Take your pick!

[Buhallin]

-People tend to pick up Bete Noir and a lot of advice on this forum will tell you the same; my advice is different, she's a bad bad model.

Bete isn't my favorite model, but this dramatically underestimates her. She dies easily because she doesn't actually die. Yes, you have to hold that high card to save her, but even if you only get one attack out of her you've got a high Cb, paired strike that does respectable damage. Depraved Tactics is pretty much an auto-cast, and Sever Spine only has to hit to Paralyze the target, which is huge. Her damage stat line may not be shocking all by itself, but her placement means she's much easier to Flurry than most, and if you can drop her into the middle of a melee you have the potential to Paralyze multiple targets with it. People often forget Mark for Death - when you have count-based Strategies like Reconnoiter, having both Bete and Seamus making your opponents' models not count is a big deal. And if you're dealing with something like Slaughter or (an opponent's) Escape and Survive, it can go a long way towards counteracting the generally low damage output of Seamus' crew. Trail of Fear + Mark for Death (yes, it doesn't affect the final duel but does hit the initial resist) is win, and if you combine it with Horrifying it pretty much counts as a kill regardless of actual damage done.

She is a bit tricky to use - you have to resist the temptation to just bring her into play the first time something dies. But she is in no way a "bad bad model".

-Sybelle is a very questionable model. I don't take her ever (although I summon her with Molly - forget that for now though). She's not really a Belle in terms of she doesn't lure very well, her utility is niche, and for 6 points she isn't an amazing combatant. She is tough for a 6 point model, but the crew already has plenty of that. You could save points here and spend it on better stuff.

Sybelle is there to give you the alpha strike. I agree with most of this, although if you can set up her triggers she can have some very effective combos (Hanged's Horrifying + Rough Trade = perma-paralyzed model). But her big trick will be letting you fire off multiple Lures before an opponent can take any counteraction.

Save your 2 points and your totem slot; either spend the points on minions or, even better, get a Grave Spirit. You can use it for armour buffs if you wish, or, you can kill it yourself for a corpse counter and then use it to summon a Belle

I agree with the Grave Spirit over the Copycat, but this is incorrect. It is, as the name implies, a spirit - so no corpses.

[Calmdown]

I agree with the Grave Spirit over the Copycat, but this is incorrect. It is, as the name implies, a spirit - so no corpses.

Graverobber: When a living or undead model dies, it drops a corpse counter.

The Grave Spirit is not living (thanks to Spirit), but it is Undead (as it has the trait).

Edit: Eep. Overruled by Spirit's last line. Guess I've been cheating again!

Edited August 10, 2011 by Calmdown

[Jamesbob]

Thanks you guys for all the food for thought. I'll try to use some of these strategies next time I'm playing. After reading about positioning with Seamus I'm realizing maybe I shouldn't be spreading as much as I have been. I'll try to keep Seamus and my Belles ~5 inches apart at all times and just roll as a unit and see how that works for me.

[Buhallin]

Thanks you guys for all the food for thought. I'll try to use some of these strategies next time I'm playing. After reading about positioning with Seamus I'm realizing maybe I shouldn't be spreading as much as I have been. I'll try to keep Seamus and my Belles ~5 inches apart at all times and just roll as a unit and see how that works for me.

The core trick (IMHO) is to appreciate your ability to control board position with the Belles, and take advantage of that. I typically do keep my group relatively close - Seamus provides a lot of buffs, and gets a lot of advantage from combat around him - but a lone Belle on a flank pulling a heavy hitter out of position can be a pretty big deal.

I'm sure some others will disagree, but I don't think Malifaux is a game that lends itself to deciding what you're going to do before the game starts. It's too interactive. You have to be able to look at what your opponent has and respond on the fly. This does make it a bit harder - especially with a crew like Seamus that requires a bit more finesse in the first place - but it also makes it a lot more interesting

[Jamesbob]

The core trick (IMHO) is to appreciate your ability to control board position with the Belles, and take advantage of that. I typically do keep my group relatively close - Seamus provides a lot of buffs, and gets a lot of advantage from combat around him - but a lone Belle on a flank pulling a heavy hitter out of position can be a pretty big deal.

I'm sure some others will disagree, but I don't think Malifaux is a game that lends itself to deciding what you're going to do before the game starts. It's too interactive. You have to be able to look at what your opponent has and respond on the fly. This does make it a bit harder - especially with a crew like Seamus that requires a bit more finesse in the first place - but it also makes it a lot more interesting

Good point, and that brings me to another question. I find that most games I end up deploying first which seems to put me at a disadvantage because I always feel like I could have done a better job after seeing my opponent's deployment. Do you have any tips for this? Maybe I just have a hard time predicting how my opponent is going to deploy because I am ignorant to how most other armies work.

Also, I'm seeing The Hanged mentioned a lot in this thread. On a scale of 1 to 10, how important is that model for me to pick up? If I can only make 1 more purchase for Malifaux for the next month what would be the most important? I currently have: Seamus, 3 Belles, Madame Sybelle, Copycat Killer, Grave Spirit, Bete Noire, and Convict Gunslinger.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Jamesbob
Adding another question

[Cornelious1424]

I actually like Sybelle a lot. She is another tough as nails model, which is good for counteracting other crews with high damaged output. She gives you an alpha strike, if needed. Shriek, oh my god never underestimate shriek. It has a nice range, it can do decent damage, and when it causes damage to a living model it must pass a Wp>11 moral duel. With Seamus Trail of Fear up, it's just another forced -2Wp, Wp duel for your opponent to flip cards for. Never a bad thing. Canine Remains aren't a bad idea either. Cast Live for Pain on your own dog to heal your self/surround Seamus with them while casting Undead Psychosis. You'll also draw a card and heal 2 Wd when they die within 6" of Seamus!!

This is a list I've run to much effect.

35ss Scrap:

Seamus - 6ss Cache

Grave Spirit - 1ss

Sybelle - 6ss

3x Belles - 12ss

The Hanged - 8ss

2 x Canine Remains - 4ss

[Haystacks]

One thing about this game is there is no one to play a master. I love playing with Sybelle and linking the grave spirit to her. In 25/30ss I rate her over Bette as she has flurry and Companioning belles to lure, you can just feed them to the brothel Madam. I would say to learn with seamus the I recommend is

Sybelle -6

2x Belle -8

2x Crooked Zombies- 8

Grave spirit -1

23ss +2cach

This list will help teach you the basics of Seamus, and using the lure as much as you can. Sybelle also adds a decent ranged attack with the shriek. This uses the starter box mostly and should only need a couple of proxys. The next things I added to this list were onryo. They help cover some of the holes and help with shooting.

This is the way a learnt seamus and i hope it helps.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I have trouble dropping Sybelle personally. The possibility of an Alpha Strike coupled with her resiliency and her ranged attack just make her a very solid model. I think that people try to use her as a bruiser too often, and in that role she is most definitely not suited.

That possibility of an Alpha Strike is worth her points however. Even if you don't always use it it is great to have when you need it. I remember one game first turn Opponent moved Sam Hopkins into position to start laying down insane fire over the board. My turn Sybelle companioned all the Belles, Chained Lured Sam into the nest of Belles, a few teeth and nail strikes and a riding crop flurry later and Sam Hopkins was dead on my first activation.

[Buhallin]

Also, I'm seeing The Hanged mentioned a lot in this thread. On a scale of 1 to 10, how important is that model for me to pick up? If I can only make 1 more purchase for Malifaux for the next month what would be the most important? I currently have: Seamus, 3 Belles, Madame Sybelle, Copycat Killer, Grave Spirit, Bete Noire, and Convict Gunslinger.

I love the Hanged. I don't expect him to apply damage like Calmdown does (I have to admit I find it odd that he would diss Bete's damage line, then include the Hanged as a damage dealer) but he provides an absolutely incredible range of debuffs and Terror infliction.

Is he critical? Probably not... But if I were limited to one model to add to your list, the Hanged would probably be it. Especially with the Grave Spirit attached he's INCREDIBLY tough, and he synergizes very well with a lot of what Seamus does - Horrifying can screw with a lot of models and their strategies (I LOVE tapping Stitched Together with it ) as can Whisper From Beyond (wanna make your buddy regret the shiny new Nightmare Teddy he loves to drop on the table? Whisper will do it). Hangman's Knot is a waste - it's nothing but a poor man's Lure, and you have better uses for :masks. Last Words is relatively weak on its own, but pop it inside Trail of Fear, and the (effective) Wp->12 is a much tougher target, and the Hanged himself has an effective Terrifying->15.

So... He's not necessarily an auto-include, but he does work very well with Seamus, and on a limited budget I can't think of any other single purchase that would add quite as much. One thing you might consider - Hanged come two to a pack, and I've never run more than 1 of them at a time (some people like Jack+2x Hanged with Kirai, but that's a LOT of stones for my taste). You might be able to split a pack with a friend.

[Buhallin]

Good point, and that brings me to another question. I find that most games I end up deploying first which seems to put me at a disadvantage because I always feel like I could have done a better job after seeing my opponent's deployment. Do you have any tips for this? Maybe I just have a hard time predicting how my opponent is going to deploy because I am ignorant to how most other armies work.

Split responses, since I tend to be a bit wordy

Being able to react to deployment obviously helps, but Seamus' crew is actually amazingly fast. Between Belles of the Ball, Call Belle, and Luring your own models you can turn a tight, centralized deployment into just about anything you want it to be first turn. Don't be afraid to be patient - there are only a few strategies/schemes that are actually a race. You've got 6 turns, use them. A slow engagement will also let you stack your hand with a few of the high :crows Seamus needs to keep the girls coming back, too.

[Sinsation]

Definitely use a Hanged for the wonderful "Whisper from Beyond." Against models that rely on healing for survivability it can be great, since your models otherwise might struggle to finish off their tankie minion with low damage. It puts attrition much more on your side.

[Teal]

I don't think that this has been mentioned, but against some factions an Onyro is an auto include for me. Especially against Guild, where they can very easily run an all Immune to Influence list and screw over your Belles. Taking an Onyro not only to adds a little punch, but drops WP immunitiess off of any enemy model. That and they look gorgeous.