Detonate tanks & Freikorps Armor

[Ferb]

Hi,

Something came up in the game tonite. Zoraida Obey'd the Freikorps Specialist to 'Detonate Tanks'. This generates a 6" pulse & every model in range receives a Ranged Strike.

As Freikorps Armor allows a model to ignore damage from pulse effects does this mean they ignore damage from the Ranged Strike generated. (I'm thinking, yes). If the ranged strike activates the Focused Burn trigger does the defender still take the 1 Dg generated by the trigger as the damage was not directly generated by the pulse?

Thanks,

Ferb

[Stern]

they are still effected by the ranged attack! they are immune to blasts and pulses/auras that deal direct damage but not the attack

[Ferb]

Thats what I thought at first. But the wording says ignore damage from a pulse effect. The discussion centred on the fact that the effect the pulse generates is a ranged strike so the model can ignore that damage. But I'll be delighted if I'm wrong as it makes a Freikorps crew a bit easier to damage.

Ferb

[Stern]

it generates an attack not damage so it goes through plus it ignores armour when it hits too

[Ferb]

Ok thanks :-) Especially for the ignores armor part we'd forgotten that.

Ferb.

[sephiroa]

it is a pulse, but deals no damage, it gives an attack, and that attack deals damaga in turn, but it's not the pulse that deals damage

[Ratty]

There is a pulse that goes out that does an effect not damage.. The effect being that a ranged strike is made. So the Freikorp's armor can't stop it.

[Parzival]

My cards say:

"[...] ignore Dg from , and - EFFECTS"...

You say the range strike is the effect. Then why do Freikorps not ignore Dg from it?

If Freikorps Armor would say "Ignore Dg from , and :blast" I would see your point. Since it doesn't I can't... Also it feels sooo not intended by the designer and if it was it should not be worded as misleading as it is.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Parzival

[Dark Alleycat]

Yes but the Flammenwerfer also states in the description of the weapon that it ignores armor. Which would mean it would still affect the rest of the 'korps. Its unfortunate that we have to have our specialist seperated a bit from the rest but its a fact. Thankfully we do avoid his damage pulse when he explodes.

[Parzival]

It ignoers Armor like in Armor +1. So if he shoots at a Freikorps they dont have the Armor +1. But the Freikorps Armor is something completely different...

[FearLord]

My cards say:

"[...] ignore Dg from , and - EFFECTS"...

You say the range strike is the effect. Then why do Freikorps not ignore Dg from it?

If Freikorps Armor would say "Ignore Dg from , and :blast" I would see your point. Since it doesn't I can't... Also it feels sooo not intended by the designer and if it was it should not be worded as misleading as it is.

The pulse causes no damage, so Freikorps Armor doesn't ignore it. The pulse "tags" models in range and these models have a ranged attack made against them. Any damage from this ranged attack is not cause by a pulse, aura or blast, and so is not ignored.

[Parzival]

The pulse causes no damage, so Freikorps Armor doesn't ignore it. The pulse "tags" models in range and these models have a ranged attack made against them. Any damage from this ranged attack is not cause by a pulse, aura or blast, and so is not ignored.

I just quoted the text. It does not just ignore , and Dg it ignores Dg from pulse effects. And ratty said himself the range strike is the pulse effect and so the damage flip would be the damage from the pulse effect. Or am I missing something?

Edited August 28, 2011 by Parzival

[FearLord]

I just quoted the text. It does not just ignore , and Dg it ignores Dg from pulse effects. And ratty said himself the range strike is the pulse effect and so the damage flip would be the damage from the pulse effect. Or am I missing something?

The wording you quoted means that pulse effects cause no damage (i.e an effect that is a pulse will cause no damage). Effects caused by the pulse still apply.

This ability is a pulse (or pulse effect) that causes no damage. An effect of the pulse (what Ratty was referring to) causes a ranged attack to be made against models caught by the pulse. All damage from the ranged attack is not damage caused by a pulse, it is damage from a ranged attack.

[Smokey616]

So what about if ha hit em with a blast ranged strike like abuela Ortega. Or say a blast melee strike like papa loco?

[notmikehill]

The armor is immune to effects like Shatter, BOOM, Landslide.

(Shatter) 2':Models suffer 2 dg.

The effect of the pulse is the damage. Detonating the tank's effect is creating a range strike, which the armor is not resistant to.

[FearLord]

So what about if ha hit em with a blast ranged strike like abuela Ortega. Or say a blast melee strike like papa loco?

Then the initial target of the ranged (or melee) attack takes the full damage (as it isn't blast damage) but other Freikorps nearby do not take blast damage, because they are immune.

[Parzival]

Still don't get it... Maybe it's because english is my 3rd language and I have problems with the language itself...

So, according to page 20 in the rules manual the range strike IS the pulse effect, right? And the resulting damage flip would be the damage from the range strike?!

Maybe I am dumb but with these two points I can reword the text in the Freikorps Armor to:

Ignore Dg from range strike (-effect)...

Edited August 31, 2011 by Parzival

[ProdigalPunk]

Still don't get it... Maybe it's because english is my 3rd language and I have problems with the language itself...

So, according to page 20 in the rules manual the range strike IS the pulse effect, right? And the resulting damage flip would be the damage from the range strike?!

Maybe I am dumb but with these two points I can reword the text in the Freikorps Armor to:

Ignore Dg (damage flip) from range strike (-effect)...

You are correct in everything but the result. If you want to think of the damaged as the effect of the effect, then you can. The real answer is that the game has a lot of ambiguous terms and phrases and they did not mean for that to be the outcome so they will rule it the other way.

[ProdigalPunk]

The wording you quoted means that pulse effects cause no damage (i.e an effect that is a pulse will cause no damage). Effects caused by the pulse still apply.

This ability is a pulse (or pulse effect) that causes no damage. An effect of the pulse (what Ratty was referring to) causes a ranged attack to be made against models caught by the pulse. All damage from the ranged attack is not damage caused by a pulse, it is damage from a ranged attack.

Right, but you are ignoring the word effect which is sort of the crux of his argument. The pulse effect is a ranged strike which causes damage. His logic is sound, and you can argue all you want but you will be wrong. Do not get my wrong, I know the way you are playing is right, and they still take the damage from the attack, but that does not mean that is actually the way the rule is written.

[Jonas Albrecht]

So, according to page 20 in the rules manual the range strike IS the pulse effect, right? And the resulting damage flip would be the damage from the range strike?!

Maybe I am dumb but with these two points I can reword the text in the Freikorps Armor to:

Ignore Dg from range strike (-effect)...

The pulse isn't producing any damage, it's producing strikes. The resultant damage is not pulse damage, just regular ranged strike damage.

You are correct in everything but the result. If you want to think of the damaged as the effect of the effect, then you can. The real answer is that the game has a lot of ambiguous terms and phrases and they did not mean for that to be the outcome so they will rule it the other way.

Under the RAW, that damage is not pulse damage. Just normal ranged strike damage. Pulse Damage is damage produced by Pulse effects. If there was no Strike required, and just a straight up damage flip, then the Armor would prevent it.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[ProdigalPunk]

The pulse isn't producing any damage, it's producing strikes. The resultant damage is not pulse damage, just regular ranged strike damage.

Under the RAW, that damage is not pulse damage. Just normal ranged strike damage. Pulse Damage is damage produced by Pulse effects. If there was no Strike required, and just a straight up damage flip, then the Armor would prevent it.

Do you agree that the ranged strike is an effect of the pulse? Therefore it is a pulse effect. The rules say that the armor ignores damage from pulse effects. Since the ranged strike is effect of the pulse, and therefore a pulse effect, and the damage is an effect of the strike, if we were using the way the English Language works, we would RAW ignore the damage. For the rule to be properly written they should have gotten rid of the word effect at the end, as it is slightly redundant and slightly ambiguous.

I still agree that the koprs are taking damage from it, but that is not technically how the Rule is Written.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Do you agree that the ranged strike is an effect of the pulse? Therefore it is a pulse effect.

No, the allowance for the Strike is the pulse effect. The Strikes themselves aren't. Once you've checked to see who is in range of the pulse for a strike, the effect is over. Then the Strikes begin, independent of the Detonate Tanks effect.

[Parzival]

@ProdigalPunk

Ah, thanks. At least someone who gets my point. I was already thinking I couldn't make myself clear.

So basicly the "effect" at the end of the Freikorps Armor description should be ignored?

My problem is that exactly this situation came up in a tournament versus Zoraida and my oponent as well as my henchman/reff were refering to this thread. As a result my Librarian died during that turn (with Kill protegee on her). And I had a bad feeling because I couldn't see the logic in the ruling of my ref/henchman... So I looked it up here and was kind of disappointed that this thread could't make sence of the entire situation to me either...

@Jonas Albrecht

Just look at page 20 in the rules manual. The range strike is a pulse effect...

[ProdigalPunk]

@ProdigalPunk

Ah, thanks. At least someone who gets my point. I was already thinking I couldn't make myself clear.

So basicly the "effect" at the end of the Freikorps Armor description should be ignored?

My problem is that exactly this situation came up in a tournament versus Zoraida and my oponent as well as my henchman/reff were refering to this thread. As a result my Librarian died during that turn (with Kill protegee on her). And I had a bad feeling because I couldn't see the logic in the ruling of my ref/henchman... So I looked it up here and was kind of disappointed that this thread could't make sence of the entire situation to me either...

Yeah, pretty much ignore the word effect. It should just say ignores pulse, aura, and blast damage. If someone can point to anything that does not make my sentence better then the one in the book I will humbly shut up.

I find the specialist hard to use. He tends to get shot up before he does everything. It is tempting to have Von Schill run off, but he needs to be near the librarian, so the Librarian gets slow to die, and can at least attempt to heal.

[Jonas Albrecht]

@Jonas Albrecht

Just look at page 20 in the rules manual. The range strike is a pulse effect...

My Rules Manual is elsewhere. Specific rule are you pointing me to?

[ProdigalPunk]

No, the allowance for the Strike is the pulse effect. The Strikes themselves aren't. Once you've checked to see who is in range of the pulse for a strike, the effect is over. Then the Strikes begin, independent of the Detonate Tanks effect.

1) It says make a strike effect, I see no mention of the word allow in the sentence at all.

2) The Specialist is must make them, it is not allowed.

3) Your wording is an effect on the specialist not the models being attacked, and good news, you are not effected by your own pulses unless otherwise stated, so your wording allows for no attacks on anyone ever.