Mindless Zombie Pandora

[Sinsation]

Since Mindless Zombies aren't part of Nico's crew, they wouldn't be enemy models of Pandora, would they? When they're going mindless at the end of the turn, would they only trigger expose fears when Nico's controller is activating them, but not when Pandora's controller is activating them and they are forced to attack her?

[Ratty]

Mindless Zombies count as enemy models if they are not part of your crew.

[marshimartian]

Right, as stated on MZ card, they are Neutral.

[Sinsation]

Is that an errata from the rules? The rules manual has a model is an enemy when:

It is currently under another Crew's control

It was hired by anotehr crew and is currently under that crew's control

It was brought into play by an enemy model and is currently under that Crew's control.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Is that an errata from the rules? The rules manual has a model is an enemy when:

It is currently under another Crew's control

It was hired by anotehr crew and is currently under that crew's control

It was brought into play by an enemy model and is currently under that Crew's control.

No it is not errata.

Mindless Zombies have the Ability Neutral. They aren't Friendly to any Crew and are thus Enemies to all Crews.

[Sinsation]

Ah, cool, thanks!

I knew that not friendly part, didn't know that it automade you enemies. Cheers

[Masque]

No it is not errata.

Mindless Zombies have the Ability Neutral. They aren't Friendly to any Crew and are thus Enemies to all Crews.

This train of thought leads to problems. Doesn't this make Ryle an enemy of your own crew? I thought Mindless Zombies were not friendly or enemy models (except when being controlled) and that Ryle was not friendly or enemy to your own crew and an enemy to the opponent's crew.

Do models moving away from Mindless Zombies have to avoid disengaging strikes?

[LoboStele]

I'm gonna bump this thread, as this whole thing came up again at the LGS last night when discussing how the Lawyer works.

The Rules Manual pretty clearly lays out what it means to be an enemy. And so I think Masque's question above definitely deserves some consideration. Ryle's abilities say he does not count as a friendly model for the rest of his crew, but he also does not meet any of the requirements listed on Pg 13 for being an enemy either.

The Lawyer's Prosecute spell is somewhat similar. It says the target is not considered friendly any more, but it also does not change the fact that the target was still not hired by the opponent's crew, and is not under control of the opponent's crew. So per Pg 13, does not count as an enemy either.

Sketch, you stated that if you aren't friendly to a crew, then you must be an enemy, but that isn't what the Rules Manual states, and it's not clear on the cards of pieces like the Lawyer or Ryle. It does open up some weird interactions for using abilities on Ryle, for instance, that say you can usually only target an enemy model. For instance, can I have my Hunter use his (0) Shadow ability on Ryle? If Ryle is in a Levi crew, can Ashes and Dust attack Ryle and turn him into an SPA with its trigger (which specifies "enemy defender")?

IMO, you're opening a bit of a bag of worms. Would seem much simpler to have Friendly, Neutral, and Enemy as 3 separate states.

[Fading Memory]

I'm gonna bump this thread, as this whole thing came up again at the LGS last night when discussing how the Lawyer works.

The Rules Manual pretty clearly lays out what it means to be an enemy. And so I think Masque's question above definitely deserves some consideration. Ryle's abilities say he does not count as a friendly model for the rest of his crew, but he also does not meet any of the requirements listed on Pg 13 for being an enemy either.

The Lawyer's Prosecute spell is somewhat similar. It says the target is not considered friendly any more, but it also does not change the fact that the target was still not hired by the opponent's crew, and is not under control of the opponent's crew. So per Pg 13, does not count as an enemy either.

Sketch, you stated that if you aren't friendly to a crew, then you must be an enemy, but that isn't what the Rules Manual states, and it's not clear on the cards of pieces like the Lawyer or Ryle. It does open up some weird interactions for using abilities on Ryle, for instance, that say you can usually only target an enemy model. For instance, can I have my Hunter use his (0) Shadow ability on Ryle? If Ryle is in a Levi crew, can Ashes and Dust attack Ryle and turn him into an SPA with its trigger (which specifies "enemy defender")?

IMO, you're opening a bit of a bag of worms. Would seem much simpler to have Friendly, Neutral, and Enemy as 3 separate states.

That spell makes it so when a crew member's spell or ability or the affected model says "target friendly model" or "all friendly models" the model is seen as enemy. However, you still get to control the model, so it is still friendly so you don't have to make disengaging strikes. It only affects what a legal target for "friendly" spells and abilities are. It does not change who has control over the model.

[Lucidicide]

I have to agree with Lobo here. There are specific reasons why "not friendly" doesn't mean "enemy."

I know this specifically came up with the Lawyer and Marcus' Alpha ability. The RM has a non-friendly AND non-enemy classification that doesn't have a name.

I'm not sure the answer for Mindless Zombies, but not friendly should not equal enemy.

[Dracomax]

That spell makes it so when a crew member's spell or ability or the affected model says "target friendly model" or "all friendly models" the model is seen as enemy. However, you still get to control the model, so it is still friendly so you don't have to make disengaging strikes. It only affects what a legal target for "friendly" spells and abilities are. It does not change who has control over the model.

It's almost some sort of "quantum Friendship" whereas they are both friendly and enemy, until some action causes them to react either as friend or not.

[LoboStele]

I have to agree with Lobo here. There are specific reasons why "not friendly" doesn't mean "enemy."

I know this specifically came up with the Lawyer and Marcus' Alpha ability. The RM has a non-friendly AND non-enemy classification that doesn't have a name.

I'm not sure the answer for Mindless Zombies, but not friendly should not equal enemy.

Ah! Marcus and the Lawyer. I knew there was a spell I was forgetting about that factored in here. Granted, if it DOES work, it gives Marcus a decent power-boost, so that he could Reactivate his own models.

Still though, when you go to target the model, there is nothing that indicates it should count as an enemy for the purpose of Alpha. Pg 13 of the Rules Manual says "Oh, I hired this piece for my own crew, so it must be friendly". The Lawyer's Prosecute spell says it doesn't count as friendly. But by looking at those things, neither of them specify the model as an enemy instead.

[Hatchethead]

It's almost some sort of "quantum Friendship" whereas they are both friendly and enemy, until some action causes them to react either as friend or not.

I believe the term is, "Frienemies".

[Lucidicide]

Ah! Marcus and the Lawyer. I knew there was a spell I was forgetting about that factored in here. Granted, if it DOES work, it gives Marcus a decent power-boost, so that he could Reactivate his own models.

Still though, when you go to target the model, there is nothing that indicates it should count as an enemy for the purpose of Alpha. Pg 13 of the Rules Manual says "Oh, I hired this piece for my own crew, so it must be friendly". The Lawyer's Prosecute spell says it doesn't count as friendly. But by looking at those things, neither of them specify the model as an enemy instead.

Honestly, I would say the biggest problem goes like this:

Sonnia hires two Desperate Merc. Lawyer FC's and makes them enemies. Sonnia Violations them. Now you've completed Sonnia scheme for 2 points AND summoned 2 Witchlings, which are > DMs.

To me, that's a problem.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, I would say the biggest problem goes like this:

Sonnia hires two Desperate Merc. Lawyer FC's and makes them enemies. Sonnia Violations them. Now you've completed Sonnia scheme for 2 points AND summoned 2 Witchlings, which are > DMs.

To me, that's a problem.

no, no no. you are looking at it wrong. you should be playing Sonnia. then, it's not a problem. it's a sweet, sweet solution.

[Lucidicide]

no, no no. you are looking at it wrong. you should be playing Sonnia. then, it's not a problem. it's a sweet, sweet solution.

Quoted for truth.

[Issalbotproto]

Ryle while not concidered friendly is not concidered an enemy because he does not satisfy any of the bullets be an enemy so does he become neutral much like the Mindless zombies. If so that would make him an enemy for intent and purpose via cannot connect correct?

In which case a lawyer would allow you to alpha a beast you control. It seems rather solid to me.

[Fading Memory]

The thing with Malifaux is there is no neutral (probably never will be), you are either friend or enemy.

With Ryle he is still under your control, and you hired him; he IS a friendly model. It's just if you want to target him with a spell or ability that specifically targets Friendly models his Can't Connect makes him count as an enemy for those spells and talents ONLY, so you can't target him. It also means if you were to bounce a spell off him, he can't auto-tie, as auto-tieing is only something a model friendly to your spells can do.

No where in Can't Connect does it say he is an enemy model for all purposes of game rules. If it were to say that, your opponent would get to control everything that he gets to do. You still get to take actions with him, your crew doesn't have take disengaging strikes against him. He is a part of your crew and therefore a friendly model. It's just spells and talents that are affected by Can't Connect. He is also considered an enemy model to your opponent for all purposes as he is under your control and you hired him.

The Lawyer's Prosecute spell is like giving a model the Can't Connect ability. They still remain a friendly model to the crew that hired it and controls it. They just become enemy targets for the purpose of spells and talents to the crew that hired it. The model is still considered an enemy model for all purposes to your opponent.

As for Marcus, if he hires a Lawyer, and the Lawyer casts Prosecute on a friendly model, Marcus would be able to cast alpha on that model. Alpha stats "enemy model." Prosecute makes the model count as enemy when targeted by spells and talents. Marcus can cast Alpha on that model because Marcus treats that model as an enemy when targeting it with spells.

[Lucidicide]

Marcus hires Lawyer and Cassandra.

Lawyer casts Prosecute on whatever. Sabertooth Cerberus.

Sabertooth Cerberus gets hurt. Ouch.

Cassandra casts (1) Elegance, needing a 6 of anything to pull off, targeting the Cerberus. Cerberus heals 3Wd AND you gain a soulstone.

Jackpot!