another kirai thread - styles of play

[Calmdown]

Did a marshal rule on Ikiryo being summoned from a pine box? I agree that she's out of play when buried and thus should be viable for summoning, but I can't find support for the original Ikiryo vanishing when she is released from the box (though it makes sense). Not sure I've ever dealt with summoning a unique model that is curretly boxed.

There's no marshalling needed.....it's all there in the book.

You dont summon her out of the pine box, she actually stays in it. Uniqueness and Rarity only check for models that are in play and burial specifically says that the model is in the game but not in play (quote). There was a ruling somewhere else that if a model would be summoned/placed/etc but would cause a break in rarity rules, the model is not summoned and instead fizzles. Regardless of how the fizzle part works though - that's the bit you need to find the ruling for - the rulebook rules on being able to summon another Ikiryo after one has been boxed are crystal clear.

[Hatchethead]

There was a ruling somewhere else that if a model would be summoned/placed/etc but would cause a break in rarity rules, the model is not summoned and instead fizzles ... that's the bit you need to find the ruling for ...

Which is exactly what I requested in my previous post. Like I said - semantics aside - I agree with you about the boxing and the viable for summoning part, it's the fizzling I'm looking for confirmation on.

Just to clarify, I agree that a "new" Ikiryo can be summoned ... but then what? Since pine box specifies that a boxed model is "placed" after winning the Wp duel, I wonder how that interacts with uniqueness? Is Ikiryo still required to take a Wp duel, even though she's already in play? If so, assuming she wins, does the original model take precedence, or does the "new" Ikiryo remain in play? The later makes more sense, and for all intents and purposes creates a situation where Ikiryo is re-summoned from within the box (or at least the illusion).

Your interpretation makes perfect sense and is probably correct, but the peeps I play with will likely require something more official.

Seems the question has been posted in the rules forum. Only a matter of time 'til a marshal moseys in and lays down an official ruling.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Hatchethead]

Case closed: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=276538#post276538

[Ratty]

hrm... been doing that wrong then, not that it matters as Kirai so rarely actually takes a hit... but still, thanks for pointing that out.

It matters quite a bit.. If Kirai is a spirit you can swirl her which makes her much more mobile as your not entirely reliant on a high mask.

and yep it ends in the resolve effect phase.

[schristofersen]

It matters quite a bit.. If Kirai is a spirit you can swirl her which makes her much more mobile as your not entirely reliant on a high mask.

and yep it ends in the resolve effect phase.

didn't give her a swirly so it wasn't a big deal and got my healing from sacking Ikiryo. In future it would be a big deal to not know however.

[schristofersen]

Case closed: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=276538#post276538

as suspected but good to have confirmation.

[edonil]

So, continuing this thread of discussing ways to play Kirai...what can Kirai do to stop Collodi? I played two games yesterday (had a blast, holy crap that was fun) and was trying to come up with ways to use Kirai to counter the Collodi bomb. I was thinking that taking a few Gaki right from the beginning would be the best way to go. Thoughts?

[Iamwyrd]

For collodi, just kill collodi, gaki would be a good idea. They could eat the puppets then you could target collodi freely. Or just use ikiryo and a shikome and just wreck face. But also I'd depends on the strategies you get as well. You could just ignore collodi, but I don't really see him as a threat as he doesn't have magical attacks. But I guess the shear amount of models could overwhelm you.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've found that if you are trying to kill Collodi you either need to devote a vast amount of resources to finishing the job (and on this note you need to finish the job if you go after him) or you need to ignore him. You can sort of slow down a bit if you kill a marionette or two, but as Kirai has no way to get rid of the scrap counter that will drop, Collodi will just bring it back.

Part of the issue is that because of the dmg the spirits do and the fact that the marionettes are hard to wound it often take two swings to finish one off, and the marionettes have a decent Def of 5, as does Collodi, so even hitting isn't really certain. Add this to the fact that the Marionettes are surprisingly lethal, and if you're not prepared for what they can do it is shocking.

If you decide to go for Collodi the first thing you need to do is pick your timing carefully, you're going to want to jump him ideally after he and his marionettes have ALL activated, and hopefully when some of the Marionettes are further than 6" away. You will also want to devote more resources to the strike than you might otherwise think. Figure that Collodi is really like killing a 16 SS cost model with the ability to use SS. I've sent in a Shikome, Datsue-Ba, and Two Gaki at one time against Collodi and saw him with strictly average flips on both sides fight everything off and come off losing permanently only 2 Marionettes. (Gaki ate the other 2)

Collodi isn't impossible to kill, but the first time you attempt it it might be shocking on just how tough he is to take down.

[edonil]

...huh. Well that's interesting and annoying...he completely spaced the hard to wound, so that means that Collodi is even tougher to take down... Ah well. I guess that throwing down Gaki and just trying to kill off all the Wicked Dolls he's tossing around is the way to go then, and deal with Collodi afterwards (if at all).

[Necromorph]

I've only played against him once with Mcm...but he can be kind of annoying. Only managed to win because I summoned a RN and a FC back to back turns, and then proceeded to kill a puppet with each swing for 2 turns.

The thing is though, like has been said, Kirai can mostly just ignore him and complete your schemes. He can do some decent damage, but without support he'll overextend himself and the Marionettes trying to take your models out. Kill everything else if you have to, and then focus on him when the schemes are done. I honestly wish I could play him, but I can't stand his models and therefore can't justify dropping money on him.

[Calmdown]

2 Shikome and double prey Collodi. Wreck face.

Any list dependant on a single model, even a master, should fall over to Kirai. If you need to, double Shikome plus Jack Daw will cause mega issues.

Alternatively, just eat all of the Marionettes with Shikomes, Ikiryo, Dead Rider etc and his maneuverability falls to pieces. Once hes on the back foot needing to summon instead of move, all you have to do is keep the pressure up or simply deny him objectoves while completing yours. Kirai shouldnt struggle vs collodi particularly more than she does against any other good master.

Edit: In other news, I managed to have 7 seperate Shikome throughout the game tonight against Von Schill. 8-1 on turn 5 amd tabled on turn 6. Things I learned tonight: Misaki is maybe the biggest threat to spirits in the game. Minimum damage of 5.....instant killing Ikiryo and crippling Shikomes is not cool!

Edited July 26, 2011 by Calmdown

[Imperator]

I feel like I have a very different way of playing Kirai to everyone else here.

As Most of my tournement lists run 3+ onryo and Datsue-Ba, 2 saishin and Lost love.

First turn I look at the board and work out where I want kirai to be for the game, she will try to get there turn 2 and probably won't need to leave until turn 5 at the earliest.

The saishin move up to locate Kirai where she needs to be and she spends the first 2 turns using in the spirit world to get where she needs to be, and then I tear everything apart with onryo and Ikiryo, and if anything is weak Datsue-ba jumps it to summon an onryo or gaki, and if anything scary arrives I summon a shikome to deal with it.

Basicly as foot soldiers onryo do everything that I'd want them to do as well as I could want it done; they have triggers for ++flip on different suits, which allows me to do my damage to people when I want to

I find particularly with this list that scemes like grudge just don't work, because the only model that I won't immidiatly sacrifice for evolve spirit is Datsue-Ba, unless they take both kill protegee and grudge against her, in which case I sac her immidiatly for another onryo and tell my opponent that's 4 VP that they are immediately denied.

Anyone in a melee with an onryo is taking wp duels for terrifying, and if they have poor wp/good df triggers then I can ask them to defend with wp. Then even if they bring down the onryo they are slowed and I can just shoot the snot out of them until the end of the encounter.There are exceedingly few models that I've seen take on 2 onryo and do okay.

Datsue-Ba just hangs around for miscellaneous utility. but can quite happily pick off any weak models to summon more gaki/onryo, until a cluster of enemies form which is when I empower spirit her from a saishin and swirl her in to swing at everyone using her cb 8 to mess people up.

Also frances sits at the back of the table and tends not to do anything at all, because even without him my opponent's can't really kill Kirai.

[Ratty]

Edit: In other news, I managed to have 7 seperate Shikome throughout the game tonight against Von Schill. 8-1 on turn 5 amd tabled on turn 6. Things I learned tonight: Misaki is maybe the biggest threat to spirits in the game. Minimum damage of 5.....instant killing Ikiryo and crippling Shikomes is not cool!

I disagree, I think the Viks are, they are faster moving and do silly damage, but more importantly you can't take them down as easily, even 1 of them is harder to kill than Misaki.. Misaki great and if she's in range you just have to spend that Seishin so she can't blast, magical melee all your seishin into the ground. But it normally doesn't go that far. Kirai can kill Misaki before she makes her points back, you just need to be aware that she's your priority #1 to kill.

[Calmdown]

I find particularly with this list that scemes like grudge just don't work, because the only model that I won't immidiatly sacrifice for evolve spirit is Datsue-Ba, unless they take both kill protegee and grudge against her, in which case I sac her immidiatly for another onryo and tell my opponent that's 4 VP that they are immediately denied.

Opponents cant use the same two schemes on one model anyway, but yes, your point on saccing models is correct.

Also frances sits at the back of the table and tends not to do anything at all, because even without him my opponent's can't really kill Kirai.

If this is the case then you should use him actively by saccing Kirai and using him.

Kirai can kill Misaki before she makes her points back, you just need to be aware that she's your priority #1 to kill.

Until bad flips happen and she gets some attacks off