Timing of Blast Damage

[Csonti]

Is the damage from Blast Marker simultaneous with the original target's damage?

For example Rat Catcher with 1 Wd is hit with a 3:blast. Under the Blast there are 2 Rats. Are they come back with the help of RC's Voratious Rats skill or not?

[BigGreen]

No they would not come back unless there was another rat catcher or Hamilin in range. Everything would die at the same time. Or at least that's how I have been playing it.

[Csonti]

If Rats die the same time as RC then they DO come back. That's why I asked this specific situation.

[BigGreen]

How would they come back? Maybe its the Magic the Gathering player in me, but when the rats die the rat catcher is not on the field to bring them back because they all die at the same time. He can't trigger his ability if he is dead.

[Ropetus]

All damage from a single attack is simultaneous. The Rat Catcher and Rats are killed at the same time, so the Rat Catcher doesn't get healed and the Rats won't come back (unless there is Hamelin or another Ratcatcher nearby).

-Ropetus

[magicpockets]

All damage from a single attack is simultaneous. The Rat Catcher and Rats are killed at the same time, so the Rat Catcher doesn't get healed and the Rats won't come back (unless there is Hamelin or another Ratcatcher nearby).

-Ropetus

See, there ARE ways to beat a Hamelin crew

[Csonti]

All damage from a single attack is simultaneous. The Rat Catcher and Rats are killed at the same time, so the Rat Catcher doesn't get healed and the Rats won't come back (unless there is Hamelin or another Ratcatcher nearby).

-Ropetus

Wow! That's a new information. Would you be so kind and point out the mistake in the following?

Sequence:

- RC is the original target and Rats are cought in the blast the attack generates.

- Every model suffers some Dg which is enough to kill everybody

- Every model suffers Wds and reduced to 0 Wd

- Every model gets killed simultaneously

- Voratious Rats kicks in and you place Rats btb every killed model

- You remove the killed models from play

In this way you get a new Rat for every killed model but from your answer my logic is wrong. I just don't see why.

[Ropetus]

- Voratious Rats kicks in and you place Rats btb every killed model

A dead Rat Catcher cannot use Voracious Rats.

-Ropetus

[sephiroa]

A dead Rat Catcher cannot use Voracious Rats.

-Ropetus

i tought that was kinda obvious.

[BigGreen]

Voracious Rats: When this model or a model within 6" of it is killed, summon one Malifaux Rat...

So you would loose all the rats and get one back for the Rat Catcher dying. The disconnect is here I think. But I am no Rules Marshal, this is just how I think it works with the wording.

- RC is the original target and Rats are cought in the blast the attack generates.

- Every model suffers some Dg which is enough to kill everybody

- Every model suffers Wds and reduced to 0 Wd

- Every model gets killed simultaneously

- You remove the killed models from play

- Voratious Rats gives you one for the Rat Catcher but cant give you any for the Rats because the catcher is gone and the ability is no longer in play.

[Csonti]

A dead Rat Catcher cannot use Voracious Rats.

-Ropetus

i tought that was kinda obvious.

Not for me. With this logic, the skill couldn't be used to bring out a Rat from the RC when he dies. Which is certainly not the case.

Sorry to beat a dead horse but I still can't see to logic of the ruling.

[ZiggyQubert]

So you would loose all the rats and get one back for the Rat Catcher dying. The disconnect is here I think. But I am no Rules Marshal, this is just how I think it works with the wording.

- RC is the original target and Rats are cought in the blast the attack generates.

- Every model suffers some Dg which is enough to kill everybody

- Every model suffers Wds and reduced to 0 Wd

- Every model gets killed simultaneously

- You remove the killed models from play

- Voratious Rats gives you one for the Rat Catcher but cant give you any for the Rats because the catcher is gone and the ability is no longer in play.

Except that Vaoracious rats states '... Summon one Malifaux Rat into base contact with the model before it is removed from play.'

so if everything is hapening similtaniously then it would hapen before the - You remove the killed models from play step

(just playing devils advocate here)

[Chipacabra]

That's still after the rat catcher is dead, though, and it sounds like dead models use no abilities unless the ability says otherwise.

[Csonti]

So the question is hanging in the air. How could it be that the RC generates a Rat from himself when he dies but not from the Rats around him who die at exactly the same time as the RC in a blast?

I can't see any reason based on RAW. If the intent is this, I think the Voratious Rats skill needs a rewording.

<Drops cookies, cheese, blood counters and anything nearby that could catch an RM's attention.>

[Naravus]

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I'll do my best to contribute.

Voracious Rats happens when anything within 6'' is killed.

Rat-Catcher and Rats die at the same time.

Voracious Rats can't happen if the RC is dead so it cannot affect things which die at the same time. RC makes a rat always when he dies.

Voracious Rats probably needs to be reworded a bit or simultaneous damage clarified.

[Hookers]

So the question is hanging in the air. How could it be that the RC generates a Rat from himself when he dies but not from the Rats around him who die at exactly the same time as the RC in a blast?

I can't see any reason based on RAW. If the intent is this, I think the Voratious Rats skill needs a rewording.

<Drops cookies, cheese, blood counters and anything nearby that could catch an RM's attention.>

I think you are technically correct. The ability explicitly says "before it is removed from play" so if it were simultaneous then the rats would be affected by voracious rats and be able to summon a new rat to each of them, as well as a rat for the rat catcher who would then be removed from play.

However, you already did get a rules marshal so I don't think the cookies are necessary. He explained the intent of the ability at least.

So view it as this: resolve the target first. Rat catcher dies, summons a rat into base, and then Voracious rats is no longer around to summon rats off of the rest of them.

[Hatchethead]

Here's a Marshal post from the "Slow to die healing" thread that is very applicable and important. This was ruled on late last night.

Some of the highlights:

Official ruling: You cannot heal dead models. Dead models cannot use any Abilities except those that separately state they trigger when they die

The Rat Catcher can only use the part referencing his own death on Voracious Rats. Effectively, multiple dead models can't interact with each other anymore.

Expect a new Slow to Die wording, which states the model takes a (1) Action instead of being killed, then dies after the Action if still confirmed death. This makes Slow to Die different from other abilities triggering from death in that the model is not yet dead during Slow to Die.

[zatoichi98]

Does this mean the RC doesent get the armor supplied by nearby rats?

Am I understanding this correctly? If the blast damage is simultaneous and the RC dies at the same time as the rats, does the RC still get the armor benefit from the rats?

[Hatchethead]

Does this mean the RC doesent get the armor supplied by nearby rats?

I would say he does, since armor is applied while calculating final wounds (Dg - armor = Wd). This means the armor is applied before the models all drop to 0 Wd and die, at which point they can no longer interact with each other.