Jonas Albrecht Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 One of my biggest problems with Malifaux right now is that Book 2's Master and Minion designs are so synergistic and interesting that, in my opinion, they really shine a bad light on a lot of the earlier crews. Compare C. Hoffman to Ramos for the most glaring example. Whereas one is capable of interacting with machines in ways that either boost his performance or theirs, the other simply creates spiders and ECs. Two of the Guild crews also suffer from a lack of synergistic playstyle: Lady Justice and Sonnia Criid. Both are focused on specific strengths, but could be crewed by just about anything you have the points for. Some might see this as a bonus, being free to build whatever crew they want. That is a merit for some, but for me it makes the themes such as Death Marshal and Witch Hunter completely meaningless. The Ressers largely avoid this problem, with even the most generic Reserrectionist has a lot of undead boosting abilities. Whatever my opinion is on this matter, I'm curious to see what most of you think of this notion. Are there any crews that you'd like to see get a complete redesign with the intent of giving them a new playstyle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm not so convinced that the masters should be completely redesigned. I think it would be far more effective to adapt it with releasing minions to change the emphasis rather than a complete overhaul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm not so convinced that the masters should be completely redesigned. I think it would be far more effective to adapt it with releasing minions to change the emphasis rather than a complete overhaul And that's probably what will happen, if anything. We'll get patches in the form of Minions meant to bolster crew styles (Abuela, Maliraptor). Though when we eventually get Malifaux 2nd edition, I hope Book 2 is the one the creators take their cue from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 There are still quite a few synergies in book 1. Maybe not specifically guild but Ressers (mainly Seamus and crew) and Neverborn both have very strong synergies as well as Arcanists and some of the Outcasts (Viks with each other) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I agree that there are some crews in book one with playstyles similar to book 2. The Ortegas, The Order of the Chimera, all of the Ressers... I would disagree that the Viks have synergy with other Outcasts. They have Master talents that play well with each other, but I would love to see them have something for working well with other Mercs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I agree the Viks do lack synergy with their crew however with each other they are bit of a 2 woman army... Also I think the new rulebook will bring a lot more synergy/options to the table Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Honestly, I think many of the Rising Powers models are OVER-synergized. Witchling Stalkers and Death Marshals may not have anything that ties them to their respective masters that tightly, but that also means they can show up in other crews without a lot of loss of effectiveness. I frequently run a Belle or Sabretooth Cerberus in crews other than their associated master. But how often does Colette or Hoffman branch out from their core capability? And while the Coryphee are certainly good enough to make an appearance in about any Arcanist list, why would you ever take a Performer (or even Cassandra) with anyone but Colette? The synergies for the Rising Powers masters are solid enough that you pay a heavy price for breaking them. The flip side is that it pigeonholes you into what you're going to run. I think that opens up a nasty R/P/S potential that you could end up on the short end of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I would agree Ramos sort of has a lack luster synergy with Constructs, so he might be my first choice. The only other master I could see is maybe Zoraida, since she is really the only master without much of a crew of her own. Every other crew seems to have a feel of it, while she is just sort of Witch from a swamp. It works ok, but compared to every other crew it just seems quickly thrown together. Can not comment too much on the Guild, but they seem like the most toolbox of all the factions, sort of picking and choosing as they need to. Both Criid and Lady J are not really support masters, so they can do their own thing, and their crews can sort of develop a little at a time as books get released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 But Ramos and Zoraida in their fluff dont really function with a crew. Zoraida is all about predicting the future and control whereas Ramos' constructs are far less complex than Hoffmans more of a swarm than Hoffmans powerful individuals. Also Hoffman should have a greater affinity with constructs due to his magical connection with them. Ramos is a great designer and inventor however doesnt have the same magical connection as Hoffman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 But how often does Colette or Hoffman branch out from their core capability? And while the Coryphee are certainly good enough to make an appearance in about any Arcanist list, why would you ever take a Performer (or even Cassandra) with anyone but Colette? How about.. You take a Performer with Hoffman and you get a Mannequin to follow Hoffman around with link and give him Armor3 I really don't think Hoffman is THAT locked.. He need something to carry him around, but you could easily take Marshals with him for the rest - I fail to see why that would be such bad an idea. I'll give you though that Colette and Dreamer are pretty one lined. So is Hamelin and Kirai for that matter, but the feel to them is very different so not as apparent in a way (rambling here now.. but that's how I feel anyway xD). As for the thread I think Eric once said they had several of the Book2 Masters sketched before even releasing the first book - so probably they just saved the most mind-boggingly Masters for later? I still think you're right about most of it though xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Honestly, I think many of the Rising Powers models are OVER-synergized. Witchling Stalkers and Death Marshals may not have anything that ties them to their respective masters that tightly, but that also means they can show up in other crews without a lot of loss of effectiveness. I frequently run a Belle or Sabretooth Cerberus in crews other than their associated master. But how often does Colette or Hoffman branch out from their core capability? And while the Coryphee are certainly good enough to make an appearance in about any Arcanist list, why would you ever take a Performer (or even Cassandra) with anyone but Colette? The synergies for the Rising Powers masters are solid enough that you pay a heavy price for breaking them. The flip side is that it pigeonholes you into what you're going to run. I think that opens up a nasty R/P/S potential that you could end up on the short end of. I have to agree with this assessment. There are positives and negatives to each. This coupled with future releases, whatever they may be, makes it likely that all will work out well in the end. It's hard for me to imagine wanting to redo any of the crews. Sure, when you look at someone like the Dreamer who has such a unique mechanic, it's sometimes tempting to look at someone like Lady J and say "everyone can do what you can do, but just to a lesser degree." But at the end of the day, it's important to have the norm against which other things are judged. If I were to change anything, it would probably be Marcus just so that there are fewer "Marcus is weak" posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gru6y Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Honestly, I think many of the Rising Powers models are OVER-synergized. Witchling Stalkers and Death Marshals may not have anything that ties them to their respective masters that tightly, but that also means they can show up in other crews without a lot of loss of effectiveness. I frequently run a Belle or Sabretooth Cerberus in crews other than their associated master. But how often does Colette or Hoffman branch out from their core capability? And while the Coryphee are certainly good enough to make an appearance in about any Arcanist list, why would you ever take a Performer (or even Cassandra) with anyone but Colette? The synergies for the Rising Powers masters are solid enough that you pay a heavy price for breaking them. The flip side is that it pigeonholes you into what you're going to run. I think that opens up a nasty R/P/S potential that you could end up on the short end of. These are my thoughts exactly. I don't think it's bad though. It is nice that we have some masters that are okay with a wide variety of minions and ones designed to strictly cooperate with their crews. As long as the balance is kept in the future, I'm a happy wyrdo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 would you ever take a Performer (or even Cassandra) with anyone but Colette? Because they are amazing piece movers. I use them with The Ortegas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Really? 8 stones seems incredibly expensive just for that, but that's IMHO obviously. Am I missing something on the Mannequin being able to Link with Hoffman, though? It says only to Showgirls... He obviously doesn't have it, and I don't see any way to give it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Hoffman can make the manaquin forget it can only link to showgirls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Really? 8 stones seems incredibly expensive just for that, but that's IMHO obviously. Am I missing something on the Mannequin being able to Link with Hoffman, though? It says only to Showgirls... He obviously doesn't have it, and I don't see any way to give it to him. His ignore your crappy abilities talent lets them Link to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 But Ramos and Zoraida in their fluff dont really function with a crew. Zoraida is all about predicting the future and control whereas Ramos' constructs are far less complex than Hoffmans more of a swarm than Hoffmans powerful individuals. Also Hoffman should have a greater affinity with constructs due to his magical connection with them. Ramos is a great designer and inventor however doesnt have the same magical connection as Hoffman I 100% agree with this. Sonnia and Lady J are similar to a degree as well. Lady J you see with the Judge in almost all of the fluff, but beyond that, I get the impression that she barely realizes that anyone else exists at all. Sonnia doesn't really care about anyone or anything else, just her own hunt for magic. As for the Book 2 masters, I think as someone pointed out, that Hoffman can work with lots of different stuff. He might synergize best Constructs, but there's plenty of other Guildies that you could run with him too and not be all that ineffective. Colette, the Dreamer, and Kirai are the only ones that really seem THAT limited IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 One other thing that kind of a tanget to this topic. The totems in Book 2 seem to be more integrated with the design of the Master. Closer to how Zoraida works rather than say Lilith. How do you feel about that? Should totems be a part of the effectiveness of a Master, or do you prefer them as completely optional, even if it makes them less useful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I think they should be optional...but made to work very nicely with their master.Maybe like a power amplifier for a master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 I like that the totems have different approaches and themes. It keeps the flexibility to them. Even if I'd probably never take a Wendigo over an Essence, at least it's a different option, and how I use a Grave Spirit is dramatically different than how I'd employ the Copycat Killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonWyll Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) I sort of see the point being made but at the same time, I do feel that Sonnia and Lady Justice are good enough to stand alone as masters without a whole lot of synergy. Ramos as well. Does Ramos have a whole lot of synergies? Not really, is he effective? I'd say so. What he does is what he needs to do, it works, so it's fine. I do like the variety of totems but this is partly because I don't think some of them are very good. I rarely see outcast totems used at all, and as a Ressurectionist player, I find Nicodem's totems completely benign unless I want to deliver Killjoy through them (no crow in the cast and a cast of 2). I think if each master had a cool totem I would like that more because some totems (like the lost love) seem vastly superior to others of the same cost. I guess I feel that the totems should all be (roughly) the same strength as one another, I mean sure, you could have totems that cost 1 or 2 soulstones with respective abilities but something that allows you to raise your master from the dead, can heal, and can turn models into spirits, seems vastly superior to something that gives fast to a model as an (All) action. It might be on par with a totem that could give fast to a model as a 1 action though, even if the ability was only once per turn. Edited March 21, 2011 by VonWyll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerousBeans Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I agree about the lack of synergy within some crews, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I mean, if all masters were as synergistic with their crews as say Kirai, then there would be no variation at all. I like how there are crews out there that will only use a handful of models available to them but I also appreciate the 'super solo' masters and how they'll let you play pretty much whatever you want without shooting yourself in the foot. In the future (possibly the not-so-distant future) I wouldn't be surprised if Wyrd introduced 'Catalyst' minions which will gain/give buffs when fielded with a specific master. ie: (I'm just pulling these out of my arse btw) Death Marshal Officer - can buff Death Marshals (not that they need it!) and himself gains a bonus when in a crew or near Lady J. Arcane Interpreter - Gets/gives buffs when a nearby Master casts a spell (thinking of Sonnia here). etc. Remember though, it's still early days for Malifaux.I think we should hold our tongues until book 3 comes along, I'm sure Wyrd have some wicked things planned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 In the future (possibly the not-so-distant future) I wouldn't be surprised if Wyrd introduced 'Catalyst' minions which will gain/give buffs when fielded with a specific master. ie: We actually have one now, in the form of Cassandra. Granetd, its not much of one. On the topic of the thread, there is absolutely a trade off between synergy and flexibility. In the instance of Colette, is there much gained by going outside the pool of available Showgirls? When only three diffenent models exist (counting the P&M as one), its kind of limits the potential for crew building. On the other hand, Hoffman only benefits from taking contructs, but has a pretty big selection available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonWyll Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'm not asking for Synergy per se, I am merely observing that the differences in power between totems such as (to take my example from before), Lost Love and Student of Conflict are quite pronounced. Now, if your arguing that it only seems that way because of the Synergy then depending on your context I would either disagree or put forth that i feel that synergy is exactly what totems should do, on a more general level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winters_night Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 I have to say that I think Lady J would of benefited a lot from coming out in book 2. Not so much as a synergy issue but as in she might have a few tricks up her sleeve. I've had lady J for a while but hadn't managed to get in a game with her. I've been playing Kirai a lot (which I totally love) and finally decided to use Lady J and her crew.. and man was I let down. wow melee beatstick.. no real tricks or spells or much ultility, no delivery system, not very survivable besides having a bunch of wounds. it was just a very bland running. I had a very tough time getting into combat with Colette's crew, magicians duel'd to all hell and back, can't charge Coryphee's, Cassandra was whoopin Lady J's butt something fierce between Southern Charm or Blonde Act. I just guess that I felt Lady J dated with her bland straight forward tactics against something new and flashy with a bunch of tricks and powerful actions (Granted this was my first game with her since I've owned her but it was a very sour experience to me, not sure I really want to try her again) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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