Levy Changed! (a thread by Lalo)

[Isoulle]

As an avid Levi player I can more than understand anyones anger at this situation. However I am going to take the middle road between the two sides and suggest you do what I am planning on doing.

Waiting to see all the V2 cards.

I'm in the "Levi is top tier but not OMFG broken" category but I'm going to wait and see what they do to the other top tier masters and gauge my response. If a bunch of other sutff gets weakened, than the game moves towards a better middle ground in terms of balance. If not, well, I may dissaprove but definitely not quitting the game.

[Q'iq'el]

Sacrificed Waifs return to the game due to Shackled. But according to the V2 cards and the upcoming Errata, Waifs whom Levi replaced when he died are not sacrificed, so they won't.

Yes, I understand that. I'm trying to point out that you cannot sacrifice a model which has been replaced, because the replaced model is already out of play.

[tadaka]

Isoulle, I understand what your trying to say and there is lots of wisdom to be found there. I ask this try him a few times tell me your playing the same game you did before with out getting crushed. My issue is not that he is nurfed. Its the lack of wyrd comunication and the fact they changed how he plays. Im cool with nurfs. I dont want levi to be another back of the line caster who cant defend himself. We have those in malifax levi was different then them thats why i bought his crew and the ton of other models to go with him.

Waiting to see all the V2 cards.

I'm in the "Levi is top tier but not OMFG broken" category but I'm going to wait and see what they do to the other top tier masters and gauge my response. If a bunch of other sutff gets weakened, than the game moves towards a better middle ground in terms of balance. If not, well, I may dissaprove but definitely not quitting the game.

[Ratty]

Tadaka the loudest voice on the forum doesn't get what they want. There are a lot of people out there the general feeling might be that Leviticus is too powerful, or that this is an alright change.

Shouting loudly like your doing makes people take your opinion less seriously not more. Putting up a list of reasons why you reacon it's unbalancing, pointing out all the issues it raises and asking people if they agree would work better.

From what I've seen from this thread, most people are OKish with the change, people like Rathnard have said that they think it would make them more likely to play with him. I would have to add myself to this number, he's looking far more interesting to play.

If this was the huge nerf your claiming I would expect more people to be up in arms, but most seem to be OK with it.

I've been into Wargames for 23 years now. Things like this happen, and they are rarely as huge as they are originally seen to be. Every Codex for 40k has huge uproar about how broken they will be, and generally after a couple of months people have got used to them.

After what the Evil Empire did with the new edition of WFB I have decided to take a break from it. I've put all my rats into storage, and I'll wait for it to get fixed. It might be a while, but I enjoyed playing and painting them, and I will probably do so again in the future.

If you really can't deal with the change, you have tonnes of undead and construct so you have tonnes of Masters you could play. Put Levi away for a while and see what happens with the rules in a month or two, either people will work out how to deal with Kirai and the other hard crews or Levi will get an Errata.

[tadaka]

Rat I have posted this over and over he needs to be nurfed. I am cool with nurfing him. I have been in gameing a long time myself. This is not about a nurf its that it changes how the master plays.

If this was the huge cuddle your claiming I would expect more people to be up in arms, but most seem to be OK with it.

[gru6y]

I have put a lot of money and time in to getting a large range of options for him. They are not nurfing him they are changeing how he works compleatly. I dont see them saying hey im going to offer to replace all those models you bought to find a master you like. If i bought a car and 6 months down the road they came and replaced my car with a pinto i would have the same issue. I paid for one thing and im now getting another. They could have nurfed a lot of things and still made him play the same.

Just my 3 cents.

You have bought some pewter minis and a book. The entire ruleset and the intellectual property is Wyrd's... well, property, so they can do whatever they want with it.

Therefore the car comparison was a bit unfair.

On the other hand, I really do feel for you. It sucks to have your favourite toy changed so it does not work as it used to. Been through it lots of times.

Lets wait a bit more for the errata and the list of V2 cards and see.

[tadaka]

Gru your right they can do what ever they want to it.

It does not mean I should not say hey I dont like this.

The problem with going ok im going to wait this out is this. I wait it out, it goes live so to speak and then I spend 6 months not being happy with what I bought. If I get people talking now they may look at it before the big change hits.

Sorry to any one who thinks I should sit down and shut up but to me this is an investment in time and money toward my future enjoyment just like it is for every one else. I care about the changes they are makeing.

[Ratty]

The problem with going ok im going to wait this out is this. I wait it out, it goes live so to speak and then I spend 6 months not being happy with what I bought. If I get people talking now they may look at it before the big change hits.

The thing is they have printed the V2 cards they are already in circulation. The big change has already hit. We just haven't seen it yet. Knowing how the industry works. They can't go back and reprint them all, and repackage every Levi in circulation

[Rathnard]

Rath try looking at it from my side for a moment.

Sure.

Wyrd makes a change that takes the o say 500 bucks I have spent on levi models and makes them so I no longer enjoy them.

$500? If you've spend that much then it should be a simple matter to replace Levi with Nicodem and you'll be able to keep using 70-90% of your models. But this is irrelevant and I digress. Onto the point of my reply...

They are all ready on my bad side because of the way they are releaseing the new rules.

The release of the V2 rules could be handled better, I definitely agree with that.

They are not just nurfing levi. This is a compleat and total change of how he works. I bought models from them because I like his play style. That playstyle no longer exists.

Okay, so a few things here.

For one, his overall playstyle has not changed. He still kills stuff and summons things with insane spells, dies, and then comes back to life at the end of the turn. The rule change didn't alter this cycle, it just made it harder to maintain.

Secondly, lets assume that I'm in your shoes (as you've suggested), and my only Master has indeed been completely changed into something I didn't want in the first place.

I'd be disappointed, sure, and if his playstyle was the only thing that kept me in the game and there really was no other master that interested me, I would drop the game and move on.

The thing is, I wouldn't clog up a thread telling everyone that the change is broken and that I'm quitting the game as a result. That's just a waste of my time and energy.

Case in point, earlier this year I tried out Warmachine, spending a few hundred dollars on a Trollblood army. After playing a few games and attending a casual tournament, I discovered that the game wasn't what I thought it was. After posting a thread or two on the official forums and discussing ways to adapt my army to address what I didn't like, I eventually just gave up and I haven't played since.

In other words, I tried to address the problem I was having in a constructive manner and when it wasn't to my satisfaction, I didn't kick up a fuss and tell everyone that it's crap and I'm quitting. I just quietly moved on to other things.

Nothing I was ignored and now when I speak up im a bad guy for saying I am not a satisfied customer.

I think people are more annoyed with you because you keep saying the same thing over and over again, usually with exagerated language, while adding very little new insight. You've got every right to be unhappy with the rule change, but we don't want to hear you saying that again and again, while offering nothing constructive. Edited November 30, 2010 by Rathnard

[Jonas Albrecht]

And you should. No one likes getting their team cuddled.

But there does seem to be some missing information that is needed before he is declared unplayable.

[tadaka]

From a prior post

So rather than talking about whether the change is a good or bad thing (I think we've all said our bit on that), why don't we try and get a bit more productive and look at how Levi's playstyle might need to change to suit the rules alteration?

It has changed from a durable front line caster to a back field caster. This is a major playstyle change imho.

Due to this change rather then being damage orented he will now be spending a number of actions being a summoner.

For one, his overall playstyle has not changed.

[tadaka]

Your right and this gets in to the issue with wyrd not steping up and giving us info. All I can look at is what wyrd gives me and thats a huge playstyle change.

And you should. No one likes getting their team cuddled.

But there does seem to be some missing information that is needed before he is declared unplayable.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Your right and this gets in to the issue with wyrd not steping up and giving us info. All I can look at is what wyrd gives me and thats a huge playstyle change.

I guarantee they don't plan on sitting on it to make you sweat.

Just exercise some patience. And if you feel its more appropriate, play Leveticus with his older rules until you get all the info.

S'what I'd do.

[tadaka]

I don't think they did. But I dont get to pick the rules. I play competative and have to play the partial v2 rules they sent out. I cant go hey im gona play with these other rules you dont mind right?

I guarantee they don't plan on sitting on it to make you sweat.

Just exercise some patience. And if you feel its more appropriate, play Leveticus with his older rules until you get all the info.

S'what I'd do.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I don't think they did. But I dont get to pick the rules. I play competative and have to play the partial v2 rules they sent out. I cant go hey im gona play with these other rules you dont mind right?

*shrug* Talk to your group. Let them know that you think the update is a half measure, and that you need to play with the older ruleset until more info is available.

[Ratty]

I don't think they did. But I dont get to pick the rules. I play competative and have to play the partial v2 rules they sent out. I cant go hey im gona play with these other rules you dont mind right?

You could easily say, Leviticus relies on the relationship between Levi and the Waifs and you would prefer to play with the same edition cards for both of them. So you will wait until you have the V2 cards for both before changing over. It's reasonable.

[tadaka]

This was posted earlyer and it was kind of glanced over.

I think what is going on is they stopped printing v1 cards and are now doing v2 when more are needed. They may very well still get a change as they may not have run out of v1 cards for the waif so thats what you got. Or you could be right

When I got my V2 Leveticus and Rusty Alyce cards the Hallowed Waif card was still the original. I also bought a Waif Blister with original Waif cards as well. It is possible that the Waifs were updated recently, but so far it doesn't look like it.

QUOTE]

Edited November 30, 2010 by tadaka

[Sandwich]

Levi is on par with Hamelin, thr Plagued in terms of power.

[tadaka]

Thats a pritty subjective thing. I am guessing you think he is OP I agree question is if this change is the right change.

Levi is on par with Hamelin, thr Plagued in terms of power.

[tenabrae]

I wouldn't panic about the v2 card just yet.

[DangerousBeans]

So let me get this straight:

1) A waif is summoned in the first turn as per usual.

2) During the closing phase of the turn when Levi dies he is placed next to a waif which is then removed. Redraw your control hand, collect $200 etc (not giving Levi slow).

3) Waif is then re-summoned to Levi.

4) Rinse and repeat.

If this is the case then what's the problem? Sure it means you'll have to be a bit braver with your Waifs but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Well until I have some V2 cards in my hand for Levi, Waifs or whatever, I'm playing as per the v1 card and current errata. This is way too much to keep up with.

Edited November 30, 2010 by DangerousBeans

[tadaka]

Lol read the thread I have all ready done so and ran through the flames of the internet. But if you care to give us a reason why .....

I wouldn't panic about the v2 card just yet.

[tadaka]

The waif he replaces is gone he loses a waif every time he dies per the v2 card. Replace is not sac or killed so no replacement waif would show up. If he has any other waifs in play they would sac and come back as per before.

So let me get this straight:

1) A waif is summoned in the first turn as per usual.

2) During the closing phase of the turn when Levi dies he is placed next to a waif which is then removed. Redraw your control hand, collect $200 etc (not giving Levi slow).

3) Waif is then re-summoned to Levi.

4) Rinse and repeat.

If this is the case then what's the problem?

Well until I have some V2 cards in my hand for Levi, Waifs or whatever, I'm playing as per the v1 card and current errata. This is way too much to keep up with.

Edited November 30, 2010 by tadaka

[Ratty]

Currently with V2 Levi and V1 Waif.

1) A waif is summoned in the first turn as per usual.

2) During the closing phase of the turn when Levi dies he replaces the Waif, Redraw your control hand, collect $200 etc (giving Levi any Wounds or Effects on the Waif).

3) Waif is not resummoned as it is replaced, not killed or sacrificed

4) Worry about getting another Waif next turn.

[DangerousBeans]

By crikey that was fast! I just went to check if the waif was killed/sacced, literally 15 seconds! That's efficiency right there.

And yes, this makes the change a lot worse. Against anything that uses/eats corpse counters or constructs you are indeed boned.

I think the "entropy claw" requirement for Blessings is a typo, someone must have copied and pasted from the engine or abominations trigger. So right off the bat we are now awaiting a new errata for the V2 errata. Hilarious!