New Errata

[gru6y]

Also, its probably too late for that, but it would be great if the new errata thing was easily editable, so all the future changes can be added without much problem.

We don't really care for cool looks, page formating and fonts in the document.

It can really be all plain arial for me, as long as Wyrd is able to update the file, cause I'm sure as hell, it will need updates on the very first day it is released.

Edited November 15, 2010 by gru6y

[Justin]

To be honest, I am more anticipating the list of V2 cards and the altered powers/stats/abilities that the V2 changed. I mean, those are already in production so our models already have been updated but we don't know it yet. I think the communication on that part is the most important and is long overdue.

I totally agree here.

It is a little annoying to me that when people were asking about newer print runs of the rulebook itself having updates, the general response was that was going to be avoided because people with two different editions would be confused. Which is totally understandable.

Now the exact same thing is being done with the cards. Only it's a lot easier to miss the little "V2" on a card than it is on the cover of a rulebook, we don't know which models have V2 cards, and when buying a box, you have no way of knowing which version you're getting. I think that's what annoys me the most: not knowing what you're getting. Nobody knew how steam punk abominations were changed until they bought the models and read the cards which differed from the rulebook. That's unacceptable to me. You don't see that flying well in many other markets. "Why are there lucky charms in my cheeriohs box?"

I hate to be negative, but I am a consumer and I am voicing my concerns. Other than that I love the game and the company, but I think that almost goes without saying. (I'm posting here, after all)

As for the errata itself, this post sums up what I would like to see:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=163517&postcount=47

Edited November 15, 2010 by Justin

[gru6y]

C'mon guys, any updates?

[Sezar]

This eternal "soon" really pisses me off. It doesn't really look well when I'm trying to teach the game and I'm constantly having to look through pages and pages of printed Errata, Extra Errata, FAQs... my friends are always asking me why of this nonsense, and the worst of all is that I really can't answer nor that I understand it anyway

[gru6y]

I guess the new errata is done ruleswise and now it is the matter of logistics of releasing the new big thing (whatever they are), but Wyrd, please, give us a hint or a vague ETA on this. Or maybe just a tiny spoiler on the form of the new document.

Prettyprettypleeeease

[Csonti]

This eternal "soon" really pisses me off. It doesn't really look well when I'm trying to teach the game and I'm constantly having to look through pages and pages of printed Errata, Extra Errata, FAQs... my friends are always asking me why of this nonsense, and the worst of all is that I really can't answer nor that I understand it anyway

:ditto:

[Ratty]

I gave up waiting last week, typed out the entire rules section, added all the errata, Common Abilities, Extra Errata, Extra and I've started Examples where things were unclear. I'm finiding it so hard to play at my LGS when you don't have internet access.

Still need to rip the FAQ appart as there are some things that are in the FAQ that aren't in the rules. i.e. being able to walk through spirits.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Ratty

[nilus]

I know its hard but we just need to be a little more patient. Trust me I am just as anxious as anyone to get the new errata and v2 cards. The people over at Wyrd are all really great guys and I know that the reason its taking so long is because they are doing there best to make it perfect.

[NewbieFromHell]

I'm with Nilus on this one, i want to know what the "big thing" is, but at the moment we just have to wait.

we all know its gonna be great, christ everything else they've released has been...

[notmikehill]

I'll be the third henchman to have a similar comment :bounce:

Simply put, Wyrd decided to pull the Terraclips product line because it wasn't up to what they believe is a quality product for their consumers. Right now the rules aren't up to snuff to them, so in response they're making sure that they don't have to push out constant errata after another and give us something that has quality and significance, rather than quick fix erratas and FAQ's.

[Csonti]

I'll be the third henchman to have a similar comment :bounce:

Simply put, Wyrd decided to pull the Terraclips product line because it wasn't up to what they believe is a quality product for their consumers. Right now the rules aren't up to snuff to them, so in response they're making sure that they don't have to push out constant errata after another and give us something that has quality and significance, rather than quick fix erratas and FAQ's.

The problem is there is no such as a PERFECT errata. Most of us would be pretty happy with a 95% one that at least clarifies most of the things that hang in the air for many months now. (Actually that should be included in Book2 and if they were not pleased with the rules, they should delay that release too, not just the Terraclips.)

WS mentioned some time ago (maybe 1,5 month or so) that the errata is in the proofing stage. That's the latest info we got. And as you can see many of us would sleep better if some official were kind enough and share with us a few words about the real stage of the process and the estimated arrival time.

Actually I was very annoyed to see that they answered immediately to a guy who accused them with laziness. That rude and unfair comment deserved the time and attention of the Wyrd staff but the others with their polite questions were left on their own. Isn't it... hmm... weird?

[Justin]

The problem is there is no such as a PERFECT errata. Most of us would be pretty happy with a 95% one that at least clarifies most of the things that hang in the air for many months now. (Actually that should be included in Book2 and if they were not pleased with the rules, they should delay that release too, not just the Terraclips.)

WS mentioned some time ago (maybe 1,5 month or so) that the errata is in the proofing stage. That's the latest info we got. And as you can see many of us would sleep better if some official were kind enough and share with us a few words about the real stage of the process and the estimated arrival time.

Actually I was very annoyed to see that they answered immediately to a guy who accused them with laziness. That rude and unfair comment deserved the time and attention of the Wyrd staff but the others with their polite questions were left on their own. Isn't it... hmm... weird?

Ditto, ditto.

Perfection doesn't exist.

Taking your time to cover EVERYTHING in the errata is like thinking that if you take a whole day sweeping your floor, you'll never have to do it again.

And just because I like this link:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=163517&postcount=47

[Zethal]

I gave up waiting last week, typed out the entire rules section, added all the errata, Common Abilities, Extra Errata, Extra and I've started Examples where things were unclear. I'm finiding it so hard to play at my LGS when you don't have internet access.

Still need to rip the FAQ appart as there are some things that are in the FAQ that aren't in the rules. i.e. being able to walk through spirits.

I'll be the third henchman to have a similar comment :bounce:

Simply put, Wyrd decided to pull the Terraclips product line because it wasn't up to what they believe is a quality product for their consumers. Right now the rules aren't up to snuff to them, so in response they're making sure that they don't have to push out constant errata after another and give us something that has quality and significance, rather than quick fix erratas and FAQ's.

The time they are taking is inexcusable, and would put just about just about any other type of game under already. The rules of either book don't meet anyones standard of quality assurance, book two's editing is worse then any GW product ever released. So making that argument that the errata isn't out because they care about the quality of the rules nearly an insult considering how little effort (or maybe it was significant mistakes in printing) was put forth on the actual release. Within a week or two I could of done it all alone, as it seems so could of Ratty and probably various other people on this forum, not to mention if we had all of us together working on it.

They need to be talking to us, they probably should of hired for a new position to have deal with this for them or replaced the person that was supposed to be doing this. There are a number of people on this forum that could could certainly be doing it as a part time job remotely.

When you have your consumers fixing many of your problems for their local groups within a faction of the time it takes the company there is a problem, and it is incredibly hard to swallow that the company filled with individuals paid to do this should be taking longer than the players who are doing it in their free hobby time.

Additionally there should a section of this forum that a a growing FAQ, a weekly compiling of questions asked and their answers, in general an easy to use living rules compendium online for new and old players to refer to. Plus a notification to players on what they are examining for errata or balance changes. That these havn't been done shows they have little experience in this matter and their delay in communicating is being understood to mean by consumers that they are either not listening or don't care. I've know various people who have stopped playing due to this problem and various more who are having trouble recruiting new players.

At some point, the 'we are trying to make it perfect' argument stops working, and in this case it was nearly a month ago. Which was a full two months after the release of the book itself. If it takes this long to make it a quality errata they need to bring in someone to help them before they start losing even more business.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Zethal

[Justin]

The time they are taking is inexcusable, and would put just about just about any other type of game under already. The rules of either book don't meet anyones standard of quality assurance, book two's editing is worse then any GW product ever released. So making that argument that the errata isn't out because they care about the quality of the rules nearly an insult considering how little effort (or maybe it was significant mistakes in printing) was put forth on the actual release. Within a week or two I could of done it all alone, as it seems so could of Ratty and probably various other people on this forum, not to mention if we had all of us together working on it.

They need to be talking to us, they probably should of hired for a new position to have deal with this for them or replaced the person that was supposed to be doing this. There are a number of people on this forum that could could certainly be doing it as a part time job remotely.

When you have your consumers fixing many of your problems for their local groups within a faction of the time it takes the company there is a problem, and it is incredibly hard to swallow that the company filled with individuals paid to do this should be taking longer than the players who are doing it in their free hobby time.

Additionally there should a section of this forum that a a growing FAQ, a weekly compiling of questions asked and their answers, in general an easy to use living rules compendium online for new and old players to refer to. Plus a notification to players on what they are examining for errata or balance changes. That these havn't been done shows they have little experience in this matter and their delay in communicating is being understood to mean by consumers that they are either not listening or don't care. I've know various people who have stopped playing due to this problem and various more who are having trouble recruiting new players.

At some point, the 'we are trying to make it perfect' argument stops working, and in this case it was nearly a month ago. Which was a full two months after the release of the book itself. If it takes this long to make it a quality errata they need to bring in someone to help them before they start losing even more business.

I agree with you in points and disagree in others.

Let's start on the points we agree on:

1) There is a problem, as written the rules need some updating

2) That updating is taking far too long

3) This is hurting the game.

Alright, totally agreed there.

However, I do think that the people who have commented above are correct: Wyrd is taking so long because they want to make things perfect. I've been around these forums for a bit now, and I have gotten the opportunity to see some of the process that goes into the game. They truly do care about the product and the customers. And I do believe the delay is due to the pursuit of perfection, not anything else. I simply disagree with that philosophy.

Additionally, to my knowledge, Eric, Nathan, their spouses, and maybe a handful of people who handle shipping (although maybe Nathan handles all the shipping) are the only Wyrd employees. (i.e. receive a paycheck) Their dev team and playtests ARE staffed with fans who are dedicated and who are doing it for the good of the game. So, essentially, they've already taken your advice.

It's not so simple as you would think. In Malifaux, each model has it's own ruleset, essentially. The number of different variables is exhausting. Getting it perfect is not an easy thing to do. I don't think you or Ratty, or any number of fans could do it. I think we should stop striving for perfection and start striving for practicality. On all fronts: both the consumers and the company.

[Omenbringer]

I think erratas are a bit of a double edged sword for gaming companies.

Is it taking longer then we think it should as they push for one perfect release, perhaps. The alternative though is a constant strema of corrections that forces you to have to check and re-check the forums for the current ruleset and updates every time you play. Either way you are going to get complaints.

From what I have seen it is a normal period in the life of a new game system. Fans are rabid for the new hotness and corrections. The small start up crews can easily become overwhelmed. Privateer was no different during the early days of Warmachine. I bet if you look far enough back you'll see a similar thing happened with Games Workshop back in the 80's.

In regards to the errors in book 2, would you have been happy waiting say another 6 months for a final product or would we be seeing a similar thread complaining about how long new product development is taking?

In the end "it is what it is"

[Jonas Albrecht]

I don't even think its the pursuit of perfection that is slowing things down. It could be that even in the course of proofreading, they've discovered some problems they wish to deal with. We'll get the errata, and in the meantime, try solving the rules problems through the community, or with your own judgment. Both are usually a valid method of solving issues, and a lot more fulfilling than projecting imaginary deadlines on the Wyrd crew.

[Zethal]

They truly do care about the product and the customers.

I didn't make a comment on what they care about, I made a comment about how it makes the consumers feel. I'm sure they do care, and I'm sure they are working hard. But they don't seem to be making the consumers feel happy nor comfortable with what is going on. And working hard is only useful if you know how to work toward the right thing efficiently. Working hard but not having a good result is often a problem in business, and thus why I suggested they hire someone with experience or know how in the fields they are lacking.

"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best."

They are very skilled at what they do well, I'm just suggesting the seek help in aspects they don't do well. Comparative Advantage is reality.

Additionally, to my knowledge, Eric, Nathan, their spouses, and maybe a handful of people who handle shipping (although maybe Nathan handles all the shipping) are the only Wyrd employees. (i.e. receive a paycheck) Their dev team and playtests ARE staffed with fans who are dedicated and who are doing it for the good of the game. So, essentially, they've already taken your advice.

I suggested hiring someone to do the job, yes that would cost money, but not a lot and the result would likely be greater revenue in the long run. Your very unlikely to get an experienced individual to volunteer their time in their field of work on a for-profit project.

I don't think you or Ratty, or any number of fans could do it. I think we should stop striving for perfection and start striving for practicality. On all fronts: both the consumers and the company.

Agreed that perfection is unattainable. But you make a mistake is assuming that Ratty, myself or various other people in this community are just 'fans' instead it might be wise to assume that some of us have worked with games, rules, programming or law for quite some time and are thus probably skilled in this area. My experiences have been with games, psychology and education. I don't have experience in programming nor law, but someone with experience in those areas can sympathize with and understand a lot of the problems game designers face even if they are just a 'fan.' Edited November 25, 2010 by Zethal

[Poko]

Additionally there should a section of this forum that a a growing FAQ, a weekly compiling of questions asked and their answers, in general an easy to use living rules compendium online for new and old players to refer to.

I really can't think of any company that does such an extensive work for FAQs, it sounds a bit like "in perfect world" situation.

[Sandwich]

Let me begin by stating that I have no miniature experience beyond Malifaux, and no knowledge of any other miniature companies beyond Wyrd. From what I have gathered, Wyrd is a family run business, the presence felt within the forum being that of avid fans appointed by the developers to give rules support, and not official employees.

The lineancy given thus far by the fans has been a very wide berth as to balancing issues and whatnot. This is because we, as their customers and fandom, recognize their infancy as a company, and are therefor much less harsh about the reprecussions of a faulty product, though this is not to say that Malifaux is in any way faulty.

That being said, I am a paying customer who has given over hard currency in order to obtain models and partake in this game as designed by both the original book and Rising Powers. I, as a customer am fairly satisfied with much of the product presented thus far, but am also very disappointed with many balance issues that still plague this game, several years after its initial release.

It is without a doubt that the responsibility for a lack of a new Errata falls entirely on the shoulders of the owners of Wyrd and to no one else. They are the ones we pay our money to, they are the ones we expect to produce a working product, this goes without saying, however, that they really have.

Wyrd is built up of possibly 20 people who, more than likely, did not expect Malifaux to become nearly as big as it is. You, the community, must understand that they, as a company, are working towards a goal, that they are attempting to make this game as fun as physically possible, and so far, it is.

My LGS goes on every week without a hitch. We, as intelligent players, have simply learned to avoid using masters such as Hamelin, the Plagued, as he is very broken and not fun to play with. This is not going to be a huge deal to anyone, none of his models are released, nothing is currently final.

This game, when looked at in comparison with many other games, be they online or board, stands very much balanced. All works well, though many questions are asked and holes in the rules are exploited. To expect Wyrd to catch and stop such things from happening is utter blasphemy, they are not a huge corporation, they are a family run business.

I have had tons and tons of fun playing Malifaux, and I will continue to do so, before and after any Erratas that are released.

Wyrd is obviously still having trouble with some aspect of the Errata and are working fervishly towards its completion. They need not hire a specialist to simply produce a document for a small online community, that would not increase revenue or further build upon any withstanding income, it would take time to find an individual of such particular skill, and then they would have to go and rewrite the Errata to fit their desire, which would then lead Wyrd to proofread said Errata, and make any changes they see fit. This would go back and forth, back and forth.

So Wyrd, take your time, deliver something good. We have come to expect great things from you as a company, and there is no foreseeable reason I, or anyone else, should feel any different about that now.

[Omenbringer]

... but am also very disappointed with many balance issues that still plague this game, several years after its initial release.

Just for clarity the Malifaux game really hasn't been out that long. It was released near the last quarter of 2009.

I can get on board with most of the rest of your post (except maybe Hamelin the Plagued I dont find him that broken actually).

[Justin]

Agreed that perfection is unattainable. But you make a mistake is assuming that Ratty, myself or various other people in this community are just 'fans' instead it might be wise to assume that some of us have worked with games, rules, programming or law for quite some time and are thus probably skilled in this area. My experiences have been with games, psychology and education. I don't have experience in programming nor law, but someone with experience in those areas can sympathize with and understand a lot of the problems game designers face even if they are just a 'fan.'

Yeah...

No matter what your skills are, unless you're a part of the company, you're a fan. That is the meaning of the word I was using. It was in no way derogatory. I include myself in this category.

I don't care what your skill set is: there is NOBODY who could perfect this system such that errata would no longer be needed. It will never be summed up with one document, it will need to constantly change. That was my point.

[Justin]

I don't even think its the pursuit of perfection that is slowing things down. It could be that even in the course of proofreading, they've discovered some problems they wish to deal with. We'll get the errata, and in the meantime, try solving the rules problems through the community, or with your own judgment. Both are usually a valid method of solving issues, and a lot more fulfilling than projecting imaginary deadlines on the Wyrd crew.

Well, yeah, I bet that's exactly the problem.

But I'm saying they should release whatever they have down that they know is ready for release, and deal with the other issues later.

Then to avoid confusion, just schedule a release date. Say, the first of every other month, that the new errata will be posted. There will be no surprises: we all know when the errata is coming. And there will be no more delay because of issues that arise during proofreading. They can be dealt with on the next update.

Then, in between updates, there will be no "official" rulings. Marshals can explain how the rules are written, or what the intent was if how they are written does not reflect that. But their job will be to educate and explain, not change the rules with their posts. ALL official rulings could be during the bi-monthly (tri-monthly?) updates. No extra errata thread, no searching to see if a marshal has ruled. Just one, solid document that gets an update at a scheduled time.

[Zethal]

No matter what your skills are, unless you're a part of the company, you're a fan. That is the meaning of the word I was using. It was in no way derogatory. I include myself in this category.

Which is why I said just a fan. I'm certainly a fan of their product, but writing people off as incapable because they are a fan of the product is logical fallacy.

I don't care what your skill set is: there is NOBODY who could perfect this system such that errata would no longer be needed. It will never be summed up with one document, it will need to constantly change. That was my point.

Not one that I disagreed with, nor did I claim I was capable of producing such an errata; so we can stop with the straw-men and other fallacies.

I really can't think of any company that does such an extensive work for FAQs, it sounds a bit like "in perfect world" situation.

Do you play online games that update their content? Do you read their change logs? One current example is League of Legends. They update their game about every other week, releasing a new change log each time. They dev's are also pretty active on their forums. Granted Riot has a ton of other problems with their game but they do this well.

As for non-video games, how about D&D, Legend of the Five Rings, Magic the Gathering? Many of these games have moved away from the need for such frequent FAQ's largely due to the initial quality of the product being better written then Malifaux has been. But back in the day most of them were doing something very similar. The most prominent in my memory is L5R when about a decade ago would send me answers to weekly questions in my email.

But it's this is also irrelevant, it would take about 3-5 hours a week to keep this document/thread updated with recent questions and their answers, easily doable and the benefit to the community would be great.

[Justin]

Which is why I said just a fan. I'm certainly a fan of their product, but writing people off as incapable because they are a fan of the product is logical fallacy.

Not one that I disagreed with, nor did I claim I was capable of producing such an errata; so we can stop with the straw-men and other fallacies.

Yes, writing people off as incapable because they enjoy Malifaux would be rather stupid. It's also not what I did. (so, straw man, straw man?) I said the task of producing an errata that needs no update is impossible. As such, all the fans, lawyers, theoretical physicists, and professional game designers in the world are not going to help you. (I mentioned fans because I was addressing your point of hiring the fans: it would not accomplish the impossible) This is not a straw man: it is the only point I was making. The problem is not the people, it's the process.

You said add more people. I say, they already have enough, and they're talented enough, they just need to change the way they go about it.

Process, not personnel.

And just because I get the feeling this is one of those discussions that will go back and forth forever, I'm going to be as clear as possible and be done with it. Here was the portion of my initial post to you that caused your confusion about my writing off the fans word for word:

"Getting it perfect is not an easy thing to do. I don't think you or Ratty, or any number of fans could do it. I think we should stop striving for perfection and start striving for practicality. On all fronts: both the consumers and the company."

Now, the word "it" in the second sentence is important, because I was referencing the first sentence in which I spoke of making a perfect errata, and unfortunately I think I was unclear. So, let me rephrase and spell it out word for word: "I don't think you or Ratty, or any number of fans could make a perfect errata because it's impossible so it doesn't matter who or what you are."

Now, maybe you could help. And that's great. But unless policy changes, all the people in the world won't help.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Justin

[Sezar]

Then to avoid confusion, just schedule a release date. Say, the first of every other month, that the new errata will be posted. There will be no surprises: we all know when the errata is coming. And there will be no more delay because of issues that arise during proofreading. They can be dealt with on the next update.

Then, in between updates, there will be no "official" rulings. Marshals can explain how the rules are written, or what the intent was if how they are written does not reflect that. But their job will be to educate and explain, not change the rules with their posts. ALL official rulings could be during the bi-monthly (tri-monthly?) updates. No extra errata thread, no searching to see if a marshal has ruled. Just one, solid document that gets an update at a scheduled time.

a BIG +1 for this. I think this is the way to go, and that would help greatly both the community and the game itself.

Also, Silence is not the best way to alleviate all this feelings within the community, and a brief, quick "Soon" is not exactly the level of communication I like to read. WS or any other from Wyrd's staff should come out and explain what's going on, and what is the reason of all this delaying, imho. Not that they must do it, they can do what they want what their business, but we wouldn't have been wasting all this time yelling for information and answers, and the frustration would have been lessened with a more fluid communication.