Malifaux Model Tier Project

[AkumaKaze]

You got the idea. Any time tiers are brought into discussion there is always varying thoughts in the beginning as to how powerful a character really is. Sandwich rated him a 7 out of 10 compared to your 5.5 out of 10. If we keep this practice going we will see lots of model evolution (tier-wise) until we reach a unanimous decision. More masters to come!

[tadaka]

If they were to go head to head on a 3x3 board, statistically Lilith would absolutely DESTROY Levi. Not saying that the Levi player can't win, he just has to work a bit harder to do it.

I found this very interesting. IMHO strait master to master Levi is the most jacked up master in the game. The ability to see what is coming and stack it means more often then not he will smoke just about any master from what I have observed. Hell that's what makes him so powerful is his ability to snipe out masters.

[mythicFOX]

Having played Magic; the Gathering competitively a number of years ago decks were always tiered. What I found back then and I suspect will hold true with MX is that which specific tier a deck/master sits in is less important than understanding the concept.

To reiterate one of the key points made above it is not that a Tier A master will always beat a Tier C master, but that some masters are inherently easier / harder to do well with.

Knowing when you pick up a master that he/she’s a lower tier will mean you know you’re going to have to work much harder to win with them. You’ll have to spend longer learning how to play them well and your mistakes will be more costly.

I play Ramos almost exclusively at the moment and I’m really appreciating the challenge*. A friend of mine stopped playing Lilith because he found her too easy to play and picked up a more challenging master.

This project IMHO is about developing a concept of how challenging masters are to play, not if master X is better than master Y. This is a really interesting and I’m really looking forward to see how the first draft of the list turns out.

I wanted to chip in on the way decks were tiered in MtG. This was done understanding of how good each decks matchups were against its peers. A Tier 1 (S) deck would have few bad matchups against other decks and no auto-lose matchups. The lower tier decks would have increasing numbers of bad matchups and auto-lose matchups. Obviously this was simplified by there only being one scenario, not the 25 possible combinations of strategies on the normal list we deal with.

*I wouldn’t say I always enjoy it, but I definitely appreciate it.

[alemon]

Well said, mythicfox.

Now, I've got a question: how do you guys rank dual masters like the Dreamer/LCB or the two Victorias?

[Werecat]

Now, I've got a question: how do you guys rank dual masters like the Dreamer/LCB or the two Victorias?

With the Victorias, I would just tier them together, since there's very little difference between the two. The Dreamer and LCB, on the other hand.... Definitley not sure on that one.

[Zethal]

So...this is obviously subjective but it would seem pandora does really well on your scale.

Pandora

Of: 2 (Trauma, Mental Anguish, Self-Loathing)

Df: 2 (Fears, Trauma)

Rg: 2 (12", 8")

Ma: 2 (Well of all them, the only argument for a 1 would be her Ca of 6)

Me: 0

Ut: 2 (Pacify/Incite, Dementia, Emotions, Nightmare, Anguish)

DO: 2

Su: 2 (Fears, 7 Wp, Martyr)

CC: 2 (Trauma, Relationship, Martyr)

Mo: 2 (Fading Memory)

Total: 9/10

[Raintar]

This game unfortunately doesn't work like fighting games do, where quick reaction and move counterings are rampant. This game revolves around highlighting the most powerful abilities in the game because ultimately your masters powerful abilities are going to be the backbone of your list and will be responsible for the the vast majority of victories. The powerful abilities will vastly outweigh anything else any master could have and should be represented in the tier list.

I myself have created a tier list of my own that has shown pretty much true, I haven't yet updated in for Rising powers. None of you will agree because you will not understand why each master is on each different tier, but the tier list has been practiced through extensive testing.

So based on what I said before about the powerful abilities, some of the most powerful are triggers that can keep retriggering for example Viktoria's Whirlwind or Lady Justice's Riposte, or LCB's onslaught, each of which can kill any unit (or in Viktoria's case a couple of units) with one action no matter what the defensive capability. Other game breaking abilities are defensive like Liliths Df 8 combined with Whirling Death, and Pandora's Expose Fears both of which also can win you the game by themselves.

I'm gonna say for the general public it is WAYYY too early to be talking tier lists, especially with book 2 just recently released. I think this should be a hold off kind of thing.

[AkumaKaze]

If it is too early, why do you have your own Tiers and why will we "not understand"?

You miss the point of how this tier idea is going to work. Of course this game is different from Fighting Games by a long shot. The concept is just the same however: it gives those who are starting out a general idea as to who is easier to use or more difficult to win with. It is being done on a model by model basis pointing out their strengths and weaknesses. It is meant to help new people to the game and to give a quick and easy way for those not familiar with other factions a way to study a rival faction's models. No tier list is perfect by any means.

Player skill is still the most prominent factor in any game (as it rightfully should be). There is no true "this model will always beat this model" formula and there never will be.

If you have your own idea for tiers I would be more than happy to get any suggestions. The things you mentioned above are involved in the rating process, just not as detailed at the moment. This is, after all, a community work in progress

[alemon]

Right, well said.

Now, I've decided to try the Dreamer/LCB separately and then average. This is what I got.

Dreamer/LCB

OF: 0/2

DE: 2/0

RA: 1/0

MA: 2/2

ME: 0/2

UT: 2/1

DO: 0/2

SU: 1/1

CC: 2/2

MO: 2/1

12/13

Average is slightly above 6 when you average the totals, at least with the way I rated them. I'm curious as to how others Rate the masters that have already been posted up, to see how different the scores look. As Akumakaze said, it's a community work in progress.

Again, this is fun. Thanks for posting this up.

[Raintar]

Even my own tier list is currently being modified to fit the new guys, which are particularly hard to place (Hoffman, Haemlin). I completely understand the tier list theory and fully endorse and agree with it. What I'm saying is that alot of people on this forum don't know what they're talking about, and that the criteria are too broad. Who's to say a master is low tier because of low mobility? So Lady Justice is lower tier because she isn't fast?

Yes I agree that max player skill should and will be a factor in a tier list. With that said, there are certain masters that in a good players hands will shine tremendously and other masters will not be able to keep up with it.

Also a community tier list simply won't work well for the pure fact that a single noobie can walk it and say "oh perdita is the best master" and everyone in the community will agree and be like yeah she should be top tier, and so it happens. You can't reason within a big group. In my competitive gaming experiences tier lists are generally made by the minority, a group of individuals who understand the metagame tremendously and based on their knowledge of the game can come up with a viable tier list based on all information and strategies given, and I don't think the Malifaux community is ready for something like that in the near future. If you think you know the game well enough talk to me on AIM about it and I can determine your knowledge and could probably teach you a few things.

Don't get me wrong I would LOVEEEEEEE, to talk about Malifaux with people on the forums in a competitive setting I just don't think it could happen. Maybe we could get like a group section made privately for us, who knows?

Edited September 30, 2010 by Raintar

[Tiny]

Which are the masters you feel "that in a good players hands will shine tremendously and other masters will not be able to keep up with it."?

Not having a go genuinely interested.

[Zethal]

Dreamer/LCB

OF: 0/2

DE: 2/0

RA: 1/0

MA: 2/2

ME: 0/2

UT: 2/1

DO: 0/2

SU: 1/1

CC: 2/2

MO: 2/1

12/13

I'm curious as to how others Rate the masters that have already been posted up, to see how different the scores look. As Akumakaze said, it's a community work in progress.

I think it would be better to consider them a single model.

Also it would probably be best to get ~5 people to rate each master and average those scores. Also to talk about how to rate the model, is it's power relative to all models in the game or just other masters? Or even just other masters of its own crew? Less redundant categories might help too. Simplicity is best for beginning anything, making the distinction between Defense and Survivability cause more a problem then a boon, as is general offense compared to ranged or melee. Should probably just have Ranged and Melee.

Here is how I would rate LCB using your dual rating idea.

Of: 0/2

Df: 1/0

Ra: 0/0

Ma: 2/0

Me: 0/2

Ut: 2/0

DO: 0/2

Su: 1/1

CC: 2/2

Mo: 2/2 (would give it a 3, their mobility is really off the charts)

Total: 10/20, 11/20: 5.5/10, which is a bit low. If we scored it as one model, taking the best each category it would have received 8/10, which is probably a bit high.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Zethal

[Raintar]

Which are the masters you feel "that in a good players hands will shine tremendously and other masters will not be able to keep up with it."?

Not having a go genuinely interested.

That would be Lady Justice (Riposte/Onslaught), Perdita (Faster n You/Df 8), Lilith (Df 8/Whirling Death), LCB (Onslaught/Flay), Rasputina (Overpower), Viktoria (Whirlwind), C. Hoffman (Open Circuit), Pandora (Expose Fears/Fading Memory combo).

I outline how to use them properly in this post here: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=169815&postcount=45

[Wodschow]

So...this is obviously subjective but it would seem pandora does really well on your scale.

Pandora

Of: 2 (Trauma, Mental Anguish, Self-Loathing)

Df: 2 (Fears, Trauma)

Rg: 2 (12", 8")

Ma: 2 (Well of all them, the only argument for a 1 would be her Ca of 6)

Me: 0

Ut: 2 (Pacify/Incite, Dementia, Emotions, Nightmare, Anguish)

DO: 2

Su: 2 (Fears, 7 Wp, Martyr)

CC: 2 (Trauma, Relationship, Martyr)

Mo: 2 (Fading Memory)

Total: 9/10

Huh..? I would revise your scoring a bit:

Pandora

Of: 0 (She doesn't attack unless through spells which aren't to be counted here)

Df: 0 (The lowest Df value amongst masters)

Rg: 0 (No ranged attack)

Ma: 2 (Definetly a 2)

Me: 0

Ut: 2 (Very good at debuffing)

DO: 2

Su: 2

CC: 1

Mo: 2

The CC is argueable, but when compared to other masters I feel 1 is an appropriate value (she's not above average, if anything she's below - which isn't to say that there's no synergy, but rather that the average synergy is high).

So my own estimate would be a 5.5/10.

[Wodschow]

Here's how I'd do the Dreamer/LCB:

OF: 0/2

DE: 0/0

RA: 0/0

MA: 2/0

ME: 0/2

UT: 2/0

DO: 0/2

SU: 2/0

CC: 2/0

MO: 2/0

Score: 5/10 // 3/10

The LCB Mobility and Survivability are argueable, but they are highly dependent on being buried by the Dreamer.

Interesting to notice is how well they complement each other, so it's a bit unfair to rate each of them on their own.

[alemon]

"...a community tier list simply won't work well for the pure fact that a single noobie can walk it and say "oh perdita is the best master" and everyone in the community will agree and be like yeah she should be top tier, and so it happens. You can't reason within a big group..."

I've seen you post a few things around the board, and your attitude has been about the same in each thread. I won't try to change your holier-than-thou mentality.

I don't think you get what we're trying to do here. It's a community tier list that decides, basically, how easy each master is to use. A noobie can't walk in and say whatever and sway the whole group because there is a small score sheet people have been posting. Even if they fudge the numbers a bit because they're biased, There are a whole lot of other players who also use the master who can post their own opinions can the discussion can begin.

"...If you think you know the game well enough talk to me on AIM about it and I can determine your knowledge and teach you a few things."

Not even gonna start.

[Raintar]

So you don't want it to be correct you just want to do it as a group even if it's horribly wrong? What's even the point of making a tier list in that case? Do we just like making things that serve no purpose and wastes people time for a product that doesn't work?

That's great if you don't like me or think I'm an obnoxious prick. I don't care, I have the arguments posted to back my talk. If you don't agree with it, challenge it; the facts don't lie. Find something that doesn't work in my argument, please do, in fact I want you to, so I can better find the problems and learn how to fix it.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Raintar

[Werecat]

So you don't want it to be correct you just want to do it as a group even if it's horribly wrong? What's even the point of making a tier list in that case? Do we just like making things that serve no purpose and wastes people time for a product that doesn't work?

That's great if you don't like me or think I'm an obnoxious prick. I don't care, I have the arguments posted to back my talk. If you don't agree with it, challenge it; the facts don't lie. Find something that doesn't work in my argument, please do, in fact I want you to, so I can better find the problems and learn how to fix it.

I lol'd.

[DaLoon]

Hey mods... I don't suppose there is any chance of just banning this guy on general principle is there? The whole obnoxious thing was amusing at first when I thought it was a schtik, but at this point I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say this guy is just a maladjusted jack-hole.

I realize he probably hasn't done anything 'technically' bannable... but come on. Think about the children. The CHILDREN....

:sad2:

[Chucklemonkey]

Hey mods... I don't suppose there is any chance of just banning this guy on general principle is there? The whole obnoxious thing was amusing at first when I thought it was a schtik, but at this point I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say this guy is just a maladjusted jack-hole.

I realize he probably hasn't done anything 'technically' bannable... but come on. Think about the children. The CHILDREN....

:sad2:

Now i'm no mod but if people have issues with a particular poster i'm pretty sure they can ignore the posts. Either technically(?) or just by not reading them.

While I have no issue with any poster, and like to see reasoned debate, I would add that in many of the threads mentioned earlier the critical responses have been totally over the top.

Can't we all just get along? :dancing::vb_cheers

[alemon]

So you don't want it to be correct you just want to do it as a group even if it's horribly wrong? What's even the point of making a tier list in that case? Do we just like making things that serve no purpose and wastes people time for a product that doesn't work?

Ignoring the second part of your post.

As for the quoted:

Not sure where you got that I don't want it to be correct. The point of this Tier project, according to the OP, is

"to judge on paper how often a character will win a match against an opponent. Usually, tiers also represent the ease of use of characters as well, so in theory a "higher tiered" character will be easier to use for newcomers compared to others."

With that in mind, I think we're doing pretty well. The tier lists posted so far reveal the trend we've all noticed--certain masters are overall better at more things than other masters, and so are easier to use than them (The Perdita scores posted are overall better than Pandora's score, for example). I think we're doing wonderfully with the few posts we have so far. We are doing it right; It's just as easy for me to say you're doing it horribly wrong, because you have not posted your tiers up for scrutiny. Your excuse? we won't get it. what BS.

I don't know what type of things you like making--I have a few ideas (none kind) that I will keep to myself-- but here, on this COMMUNITY FORUM, we tend to favor the larger voice of the community as it is more tempered with experience and reason than those few who feel they are too good for the rest of us. If you look at the tacticas and strategies posted on this forum, you can see that the majority of them were devised and improved upon by the several talented players on this board.

Edited September 30, 2010 by alemon

[Raintar]

Fine won't post anymore do what you want.

[DaLoon]

Fine won't post anymore do what you want.

I think we can all agree that this is a dark day indeed for the greater Malifaux posting community. While it will probably be pointless for us to continue on... stumbling in the dark, flailing away with our meager intelligence and pitiable game savvy. I say we MUST! Not just for us, but for the future witless peons that follow us.

I think we can all agree that a post without the wisdom of Raintar is truly no post at all, but we. will. struggle. onward!

R.I.P. Brother Raintar. We know that you go on to a better place. We'd all be clueless to comprehend it (obviously). You've taught even us that much. But we take some small comfort nonetheless.

[RisingPhoenix]

Tier lists will emerge, whether people like the idea or not. WH40K has them, even though the community hates the idea - they have 4 top-tier codices, 3 mid-tier codices, and the rest are pretty clearly lesser.

The thing that will inhibit them in malifaux is model selection. Tiers don't play rock-paper-scissors well, and Malifaux invites it.

If you don't like the tiers, focus on how armies can take specific models to change the nature of the game being played.

[alemon]

Thanks Raintar, but I'd appreciate it if you posted something that helps, rather than hinders, this thread next time.

Edit: Do you guys think the factions are fairly well balanced, or are some more powerful than others, even if slightly?