Zombies .. I have a curiosity some of you might be able to answer ...

[Nathan Caroland]

So .. I have no idea why, but my brain turned towards zombies today and I was just sort of curious about a few things.

When were zombies first written about? Either in story, hoodoo voodoo, legend .. whatever?

When was the first time that a zombie appeared on the screen in a movie or television show?

What was the first game to introduce zombies? D&D from the old TSR days?

For the longest time, 'the dead rising' was almost universally about Vampires and the like, but I'm curious when the vamps became the sideshow and when zombies became the main course. I know we see more and more movies, stories and the like almost every day now, and I for one enjoy them (huge fan of zombie movies and novels), but funny enough, don't know diddly about the origins of the said fiends.

Anyhow, my curiosity for the day.

[supervike]

Ghouls often get mixed up with zombies, and those stories go back centuries.

A fellow named Seabrook wrote a book back in the 20's or so after he visited Haiti.

His dealt with the Voodoo cults and the 'zombi'....Souless thralls of a magician.

That is credited largely as the first 'western exposure'. "White Zombie" (with bela lugosi) is based on much of that ideal.

Lovecraft has a bunch of zombie related stories.

Most of the movies and films from the 40's and 50's stuck to the voodoo zombie.

One movie way back in the early 40's (or late 30's) was based on HG WELLS idea of walking sickness that plagued the world, turning people into dumbed down creatures who could infect others. That seems to be the basis for most of our modern zombie apocolypse type flicks.

Even the I AM LEGEND story goes back to the early 50's (before they ruined it with that hideous movie). It's got many of the elements of the modern zombie.

That story was a big influence on George A. Romero, who for all intents and purposed is considered the 'father' of the modern zombie culture.

Zombies have gotten insanely popular recently. To be honest, as a kid I love horror movies (MONSTER movies) but HATED HATED HATED zombies. Too damn creepy.

I can't seem to get enough of them now. I've had a serious zombie fetish for about 3 years now......

(although I still can't watch zombie movies late at night)

[AntiZombie]

Actually in transilvania lore in it's purest form the nosferatu are more zombie than vampire. I think VRAM stokers take on Ivan the terrible really created the modern schism between what we now know as vampire and zombie. Also african lore is where the modern concept of zombie comes from as voodo preist were said to bring the dead back. However that zombie was more of a golem and did not propigate itself .

As far as moder zombie goes I think that that was really developed in hollywood culture and our desire for the horror genre. Zombie movies both scare and invigorate us brcause at once we are face with an inhuman human who propogates itself and lost it's primary evolutional adaptation ( reason) and we see ourselves overcommimg this creature that represents our primal instincts and nature. This is just my theory though. Zombies are primarily an oral tradition and ooral traditions are alwas hard to pinpoint as far as origins go. Especially in the cultural crck pot of America.

[DangerousBeans]

I was always under the impression that Romero was responsible for the "modern" zombie, but zombie's go back aaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggeeeeeeesssssssssss if you consider most reference to "the walking dead" as to zombies. Hell, even Jesus was a zombie!

I for one am getting sick to death of the zombie fad though. It was great for a while, but there's just too damn many of them now. I hate it when cool things I love go mainstream. Luckily those god-awful Twilight films seem to have shifted the focus back to rubbish vampires so hopefully they'll leave our beloved brain-eaters alone for a while. Saying that, the "Walking Dead" comics have been green lit for a series......

[shekbo]

Hehe, I don't think even the writer of twilight could make zombies sexy, and that's what makes something mainstream. You'd have to get Orlando bloom with fake stitches and green paint to make zombies really "mainstream." as long as the fad stays within the nerd/heavy metal cover art area I'm fine with it.

Origins of zombies... I can't say much more than supervike did, excellent synopsis. They first kind of exploded onto the screen with Dawn of the Dead, that was the first big one that popularized zombies... Basically there's two flavors of movie zombies, separated into speeds.

Slow zombies are shambling monsters, scary not because they're particularly dangerous but because of the loss of individuality and the inevitability of them. Dawn of the Dead zombies, for example, were slow and shambly but the characters could never actually kill them, and they usually do things like cause someone to die and zombify with just one bite.

Fast zombies were basically invented by the movie 28 days later. As their name implies, they run around like crazy people and are more dangerous than slow ones. Think left 4 dead, if you have played or are familiar with the game. They're usually considered more "realistic" because they're really more like rabid people than actually dead people, generally just being insane while not actually being undead. This is where zombies kind of toe the line between being actually "undead" and just kind of "crazy people who want to kill you." They're generally more popular for lower budget movies and video games because you require less extras to use them and they're more challenging for players to hit.

That's all I know really, not too much historical stuff but a bit of info. Hope it helped!

[tenabrae]

28 days later doesn't have zombies, it has 'infected' (as do most of the 'zombie' movies of this decade). I'm not a fan of the fast zombie... shambling hordes are where it's at.

Depending on your definition of a zombie, you can find references in myths going pretty far back, particularly in asian cultures.... again depending on what you're thinking of as a 'zombie', Frankenstein is a reanimated corpse.

As far as the shambling bullet-to-the-brain, "Moar Brains nom nom" zombies go that was pretty much Hollywood.

The wikipedia page on zombies has a decent looking chronology of popular zombie fiction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie

[supervike]

28 days later doesn't have zombies, it has 'infected' (as do most of the 'zombie' movies of this decade). I'm not a fan of the fast zombie... shambling hordes are where it's at.

There is the psychological fear of the slow, relentless zombie. It doesn't matter how far you run, they'll eventually be there....

But, the fast zombie has added some visceral fear as well.

In my little 'zombie world'. I like the idea of the fresher zombies being fast and as agile as humans....but the longer they rot, the slower they become.

[Nathan Caroland]

Very cool - appreciate the input.

Me personally, I like the fast zombies (infected) as it adds that jump and fear bit. I actually never a fan of horror films or zombies in the least until my wife made me (yup, dragged me out and maaaade me) take her to see the remake of Dawn of the Dead. She jumped, dug furrows into my hand, and it scared the hell out of her for a month. Now she can't stand to watch them but I'm all about them!

Going to check out some of those links, appreciate it.

So, another question then, what is the different style of zombie depending on culture? Take out the Hollywood glitz and glam, but the down right folk lore feel of things. Asian vs. African vs. European ..

[AntiZombie]

There are some really cool documentaries on the history channel on the origins of supernatural myths- you can usually catch them when the arnt talking about hitler, so maybe once a week

[Nathan Caroland]

Don't watch TV. Don't have cable. Don't want it either.

[supervike]

Don't watch TV. Don't have cable. Don't want it either.

DO NOT SPEAK EVIL OF MY GOOD FRIEND TV!!!!

I spend alot of time with him, and if truth be known, I couldn't live without him.

Funny....I HATED zombie flicks until my neighbor dragged me to see the Dawn of the Dead remake as well.....Then I became kinda hooked!

[ispep]

Where do zombies come from? Well, when a psycho mad hatter loves a dead hooker very very much...

[AntiZombie]

Sometimes libraries have the documentaries too. I aso don't have cable but tv and mr DVD player are good friends of mine too

[Tikimonkey]

Everything you could ever want to know about zombies. Go Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie

[Atticus]

Others have pointed out most of what I know, the zombie (at least that term) has its origins in vodoo and African culture. "White Zombie" and "The Serpent and the Rainbow" are good movies that take the more traditional vodoo style approach. The 1974 classic "Sugar Hill" not to be confused with the Wesley Snipes movie, is another good vodoo zombie movie, in the blackxploitation type genre.

Romero's Night of the Living Dead in 1968 was probably the most influential U.S. movie and I think sort of invented the marauding band of zombies, infecting others. The idea of infection is interesting though. Even though vampires and werewolves were created by being bitten by another, zombies were not. However, in Nosferatu, the nosferatu brings the plague with him. So in a sense his arrival triggers a form of apocalypse.

I even give Romero credit for coming up with the crazy, super violent living zombie. Check out his 1973 film called "The Crazies." There a biological warfare agent turns residents of a town into violent lunatics.

"Pontypool" is an interesting take on violent, living zombies where words and not a virus create the "zombies." It's very similar to the book "Snow Crash."

Lovecraft had stories with ghouls and zombies, although I don't think they were referred to as zombies. Herbert West: Reanimator was more of a Frankenstein type story to me, although I see how the line between zombie and Frankenstein's monster is blurred. The Thing on the Doorstep was certainly a reanimated corpse. The Outsider I was never sure if it was a reanimated corpse or a ghoul. Pickman's Model was certainly a ghoul. Although I'm not sure what a ghoul is. I got the impression in the Lovecraft sense, a ghoul wasn't necessarily undead, but just a being that ate dead flesh.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Atticus

[Justin]

So .. I have no idea why, but my brain turned towards zombies today and I was just sort of curious about a few things.

When were zombies first written about? Either in story, hoodoo voodoo, legend .. whatever?

When was the first time that a zombie appeared on the screen in a movie or television show?

What was the first game to introduce zombies? D&D from the old TSR days?

For the longest time, 'the dead rising' was almost universally about Vampires and the like, but I'm curious when the vamps became the sideshow and when zombies became the main course. I know we see more and more movies, stories and the like almost every day now, and I for one enjoy them (huge fan of zombie movies and novels), but funny enough, don't know diddly about the origins of the said fiends.

Anyhow, my curiosity for the day.

I did a little research on this a while back. Let's see what I can remember...

There are stories of the walking dead that have gone on for as long as there have been people, but most of the legends that gave birth to modern walking dead (zombies and vampires) are European, particularly Germanic. When a person dies their body tends to bloat as it is consumed by bacteria. This often leads to ruptured blood vessels, sometimes even resulting in leakage of blood from the mouth, eyes, and nose. It is generally accepted that this natural phenomenon is what is responsible for stories of the walking dead: imagine villagers searching for the cause of an illness (germ theory hundreds of years off) and finding that corpses not yet buried were engorged and hap blood on their lips. Had they been feeding?

But actual zombie mythology (I believe) is based on a Germanic legend, the Wympire. (I think that's the right spelling) More or less translated, vampire. But this vampire was rumored to act much more like the mindless zombie of today's mythos than the suave vampire.

Zombies first broke into modern culture with the book I Am Legend by Richard Matheson in which a plague turned humanity into, well, blood sucking zombies. Matheson based these creatures on the Germanic myths I mentioned above. I also want to say here, that the movies based on this book totally missed the point. In the book, the main character went on daily raids, killing what he thought were mindless zombies. Only halfway through does he realize that some of these creatures had maintained their human emotions and intellect and had formed their own society...and he was murdering them in their sleep. He was the boogeyman, not them. Hence "I Am Legend."

Anyway...that book inspired Romero's Night of the Living Dead, and from their zombies were a cornerstone.

Couldn't tell you about gaming though.

[Q'iq'el]

Actually in Tibetan, Indian and Chinese traditions there are plenty of stories of walking dead.

In China for example Taoist priests would often "summon" people who died away from home, so that they can be re-burried close to their families as the custom demands. Those bodies would travel across the countries jumping around in huge steps, until they reach their destination. A service usually sold to those too poor to transport the body more conventionally.

For some Tibetan inspiration you can always try Alexandra David-Neel's "Magic and Mystery in Tibet", and if you're interested in Indian undead, there's always "Vikram and the Vampire".

I'm pretty sure you'll find legends and stories about undead in every civilization with minimum research. Those are pretty basic beliefs and I doubt anyone can claim to have "invented" them.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

But actual zombie mythology (I believe) is based on a Germanic legend, the Wympire. (I think that's the right spelling) More or less translated, vampire. But this vampire was rumored to act much more like the mindless zombie of today's mythos than the suave vampire.

The fact that the word Vampire has been transferred to English from French and German doesn't make it "germanic" at all. The word Shaman is transferred from Russian, but it isn't Russian word, but Tungus. The word "Horde" so loved by fantasy affiliates everywhere has arrived from Polish (Horda), but it isn't Polish word at all, but Mongolian (see Altan Ord).

The legends about Vampires have been brought to Europe by Slavs and they probably carried them from Persia or Northern India. The word wampierz, upir, vampir etc. in many similar forms appears in all slavic languages. I believe the written records go as far as 11c.

On the top of that all the Central and Eastern Europe have legends and myths about Strzygas, Strigoi etc. - witches with two souls (or newborn children) who pass only one soul when they die, and rise as vampires to feed on living because the other stays in the body. These myths are believed to be of Roman origin and the word itself rooted in the latin Strix.

In other words, it's not easy to find exact roots of any myths and legends, considering they are all mixed up influences from different sources.

[Spectre]

This is a great thread and have been following it with interest.... not wanted to hi-jack it but whilst I have so many learned ones in the room "When did vampires first start getting destroyed by sunlight, in the original the Count is meerly weaken by it"

[Q'iq'el]

This is a great thread and have been following it with interest.... not wanted to hi-jack it but whilst I have so many learned ones in the room "When did vampires first start getting destroyed by sunlight, in the original the Count is meerly weaken by it"

Well, the Count Dracula is hardly an original of anything.

Le Fanu's "Carmilla" introduced the most elements of a good modern vampire story and Stoker plagiarized whatever he could. Interestingly enough Carmilla's action takes place in Styria (Austria), which borders Slovenia and its rural community has plenty of people of slavic descents. Dracula's castle originally was placed in Styria as well, but then Stoker realized the source of inspiration will be waaaay too obvious and moved it to Transylvania. Or so they say.

But I think vampire tales in Central and Eastern Europe refer to Rooster's call as the moment when the strigois and vampires head back to their graves. I've also heard one story which was very definite as to the exact our of the call - 4am. Quite a bit before the dawn, in other words.

I suppose numerological and/or cabalistic beliefs may be more important factor here than actual daylight, but I haven't looked into it.

Also I think the stake trough the heart is a Western invention, but I haven't researched it yet. What I know is that in Polish and Russian legends you kill a vampire by chopping the head off and burying it separately. If you had a vampire suspect or strigoi, you'd burry him at crossroads, facing down, with a sickle put down around his neck, which is triple precaution: If it tries to raise, it'll chop its own head off. If it manages to deal with the sickle and still tries to go up, it will only dig deeper... but should it by any chance get out of the grave, it won't know the way back to the living.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Justin]

The fact that the word Vampire has been transferred to English from French and German doesn't make it "germanic" at all. The word Shaman is transferred from Russian, but it isn't Russian word, but Tungus. The word "Horde" so loved by fantasy affiliates everywhere has arrived from Polish (Horda), but it isn't Polish word at all, but Mongolian (see Altan Ord).

The legends about Vampires have been brought to Europe by Slavs and they probably carried them from Persia or Northern India. The word wampierz, upir, vampir etc. in many similar forms appears in all slavic languages. I believe the written records go as far as 11c.

On the top of that all the Central and Eastern Europe have legends and myths about Strzygas, Strigoi etc. - witches with two souls (or newborn children) who pass only one soul when they die, and rise as vampires to feed on living because the other stays in the body. These myths are believed to be of Roman origin and the word itself rooted in the latin Strix.

In other words, it's not easy to find exact roots of any myths and legends, considering they are all mixed up influences from different sources.

Ok, Matheson drew inspiration from the German interpretation of the myth.

You know quite a lot about this.

[Justin]

Well, the Count Dracula is hardly an original of anything.

Le Fanu's "Carmilla" introduced the most elements of a good modern vampire story and Stoker plagiarized whatever he could. Interestingly enough Carmilla's action takes place in Styria (Austria), which borders Slovenia and its rural community has plenty of people of slavic descents. Dracula's castle originally was placed in Styria as well, but then Stoker realized the source of inspiration will be waaaay too obvious and moved it to Transylvania. Or so they say.

But I think vampire tales in Central and Eastern Europe refer to Rooster's call as the moment when the strigois and vampires head back to their graves. I've also heard one story which was very definite as to the exact our of the call - 4am. Quite a bit before the dawn, in other words.

I suppose numerological and/or cabalistic beliefs may be more important factor here than actual daylight, but I haven't looked into it.

Also I think the stake trough the heart is a Western invention, but I haven't researched it yet. What I know is that in Polish and Russian legends you kill a vampire by chopping the head off and burying it separately. If you had a vampire suspect or strigoi, you'd burry him at crossroads, facing down, with a sickle put down around his neck, which is triple precaution: If it tries to raise, it'll chop its own head off. If it manages to deal with the sickle and still tries to go up, it will only dig deeper... but should it by any chance get out of the grave, it won't know the way back to the living.

I heard the stake through the heart was derived from people staking bodies to the ground; not to further kill them, but simply so they would be stuck there if they came back to life.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Zombies apeare in counteless myths and legand and have more orgins and more variations on killing them, but see 3 basic types

Full Zombie,

a Fully remanmated body, has all memories of being human and a mind of it's own (usaly hunts down everyone resonable for his or death), bizarly one of the way to kill it is to "nail it to it's resting place"

Mindless,

A mindless hord brought back "somthing" to do it's biding, a bit nicodem

and at last, Vampire

Vampires are half way between the mindless horde and the full zombie, becase they have all there memories, but there complution to drink human blood, means they lose any sanity quite fast. they also have a weekness to sunlight(it varies from instant death to bad sunburn)

there are more, but these are the most common

[tenabrae]

Also I think the stake trough the heart is a Western invention, but I haven't researched it yet. What I know is that in Polish and Russian legends you kill a vampire by chopping the head off and burying it separately. If you had a vampire suspect or strigoi, you'd burry him at crossroads, facing down, with a sickle put down around his neck, which is triple precaution: If it tries to raise, it'll chop its own head off. If it manages to deal with the sickle and still tries to go up, it will only dig deeper... but should it by any chance get out of the grave, it won't know the way back to the living.

On vampire legends -

As Lalothingo pointed out above, staking people to the ground was one option, I think it tended to be a metal stake from accounts I've read.

The other methods were burying them at a crossroad so they'd get lost, or burying them face down so they'd dig down not up.

Most of what i've read about eastern european vampire myth really sounds more zombie-like, the whole blood drinking thing came in later... originally it was people who came back and tried to whack their families.

--

On zombies:

There's the traditional vodoun zombi. These were not necessarily actual undead, they were people enslaved through ritual (research links it to drugs and social conditioning). What little I know about the subject doesn't really attribute them any special abilities, just total slave dudes.

In Asia (China) you have as mentioned above the idea of bodies being transported by Taoist priests through ritual. The priest would ring a bell to warn others away and the zombies would hop behind him being lead back to their homes for burial (people didn't want their relatives to be lonely or homesick)

--

Ghouls and ghoul-like creatures (human flesh eaters that may or may not be undead) are also an interesting topic.

[Q'iq'el]

Most of what i've read about eastern european vampire myth really sounds more zombie-like, the whole blood drinking thing came in later... originally it was people who came back and tried to whack their families.

Oh, not really. Blood drinking was and actually is the prime characteristic of both Strigoi nad Upir/Vampir in Slavic legends. I once read that this characteristic of undead traces back to India, but I don't remember the source now. It's a bit confusing, because spirits and demons of Indian legends that were translated as "Vampires" in the 19th and 20th c. were not vampires at all (like the evil spirit in Vikram and the Vampire), but to make them more accessible to western readers they were named vampires... in a kind of very roundabout way.

Either way, vampire is not the same thing as simply ghost in Eastern European legends. Ghosts return to torment their families and such - vampires are entirely independent, hunt for travelers, spirit away children etc. etc.

Together with devils, demons inhabiting trees (another Indian motive), the drowned in the rivers and lakes etc. etc.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Q'iq'el