New Crews?

[streetsamurai]

I disagree, a new faction or 4 could be added easy. New factions could use suit combos or have a new suit all together. If you were playing the new faction you would take out one suit of cards in your deck and add in the new one. It could create some interesting choices if the new faction had triggers for all the suits. do I take out rams or masks this game? also since all triggers depend on your own deck it does not matter what suits are in your opponents deck.

Hey WYRD how about a new faction!

that could be a great idea, but I would also put triggers with the new suit with every factions

[Justin]

Each outcast master pretty much is its own faction.

What I'd like to see is an outcast master who actually uses all the...outcasts.

[chaosobscuros]

What I'd like to see is an outcast master who actually uses all the...outcasts.

I am looking forward to the new Gremlin faction, if only for the possibility of expanding Somer's options.

[Lucidicide]

I disagree, a new faction or 4 could be added easy. New factions could use suit combos or have a new suit all together. If you were playing the new faction you would take out one suit of cards in your deck and add in the new one. It could create some interesting choices if the new faction had triggers for all the suits. do I take out rams or masks this game? also since all triggers depend on your own deck it does not matter what suits are in your opponents deck.

Hey WYRD how about a new faction!

It's far simpler to add a new faction that simply uses the suits that are already in the game. There is no reason just because you favor X you also have to be a part of the faction that favors X. In fact, there might be great reasons why you don't.

Adding a new faction doesn't make things particularly difficult -- the Outcasts are pretty much proof of that. A four suit game with 5 factions.

That said, suit combos could get complex (particularly from a balance standpoint) and adding in a new suit would get... awkward. I agree there could be interesting choice involving swapping in and out suits, but I think you would end up including some of those suits in the other factions (otherwise it's only a decision what suits to use if you're the new group, which once again makes a strange balance mechanic for them). And once you have those suits in other factions, I think you'd get people less likely to do a mix and match of models -- easier to just take those models that stick to the suits you use.

Does anyone else feel like I just made a slippery slope argument? In my head, it made sense.

Anyway, I like the theory of extra suits and a decision, but I just don't see implementation working out. But hey, I'm no game designer, so I guess we'll see!

[chaosobscuros]

I had never given a thought to extra suits. Do you need another suit? No, but I have to admit, I kind of like the idea. But it seems like you would need a new deck of Fate Cards for it. I know my deck has started showing a bit of wear, and newer cards mixed into it would really stand out.

[Q'iq'el]

It could create some interesting choices if the new faction had triggers for all the suits. do I take out rams or masks this game? also since all triggers depend on your own deck it does not matter what suits are in your opponents deck.

Actually when your opponent controls one of your minis (spell, ability etc.), he is using its abilities, but drawing from his own deck/hand right?

The approach you propose would mean certain triggers and abilities are unavailable for your opponents by definition (unless they play the same suit, they can never draw the card needed for it).

Not necessarily unbalanced, but a situational advantage no other faction would have.

It would also seriously mess up any tournament logistics. It's already pretty obvious any serious future tournament will have to provide their own decks (just like card tournaments)... If it gets really competitive, the decks will be opened and checked before the game starts. Imagine the extra trouble it'd cause to swap a suit in such restrictive conditions.

[Fool]

It would also seriously mess up any tournament logistics. It's already pretty obvious any serious future tournament will have to provide their own decks (just like card tournaments)... If it gets really competitive, the decks will be opened and checked before the game starts. Imagine the extra trouble it'd cause to swap a suit in such restrictive conditions.

I disagree. I play a lot of card games with my family, and over the years we have worn out, and lost many cards. So now before we play I check the deck to make sure all the cards are there. Takes maybe 2 min to do it.

[Angus Khan]

I disagree. I play a lot of card games with my family, and over the years we have worn out, and lost many cards. So now before we play I check the deck to make sure all the cards are there. Takes maybe 2 min to do it.

Yeah, but multiply that times two per table and then multiply that by however many tables there are... you'd need a small army of officials to even get the tourny started with less than 15 mins wait time, and you'd be pretty hard pressed to even do that... Besides, what if between games someone messes with a deck... are you going to do a check before every game? That means somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 10-20 mins of wait time between rounds...

Checking a single deck is easy, checking 10+ in a timely fashion is a nightmare.

[Flikfutch87]

There's a decent solution to the problem if new suits are introduced - Why not keep the deck size at 54, and simply allow each player to decide which suit(s) to swap out? Each player can use the 4 suits they most benefit or like.

[Fool]

Yeah, but multiply that times two per table and then multiply that by however many tables there are... you'd need a small army of officials to even get the tourny started with less than 15 mins wait time, and you'd be pretty hard pressed to even do that... Besides, what if between games someone messes with a deck... are you going to do a check before every game? That means somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 10-20 mins of wait time between rounds...

Checking a single deck is easy, checking 10+ in a timely fashion is a nightmare.

Why would officials be the ones checking the deck? Your opponent can do that while you check his.

[Q'iq'el]

Why would officials be the ones checking the deck? Your opponent can do that while you check his.

Because it is a card game. Cards are great, I love the mechanics, but there are ways to cheat with cards most people can't even imagine and once you organize a serious tournament with serious prizes (and ultimately there will be some), you need to guarantee people don't cheat.

The simplest way to do it is to open a factory-fresh deck of cards before every game and don't allow players to swap cards in any way whatsoever. After the game you gather the cards and distribute fresh decks. Cheaters may still try to cheat in other ways, but at least marked or tampered decks are out of the way.

Even if you don't go out of the way to provide new decks for every game and even if you don't really care that much about cheating because it is a small local and friendly tournament, introducing a mechanic where one player swaps a suit for another is just asking for trouble. What if he inadvertently messes something up and ends up with 56 cards? What do you do if someone pulls out a card of the suit he should've discarded? Cancel entire game and start anew? Doable in the game store (if there's no queue for the table), but not in a tournament.

New faction with the same suits = maybe doable.

New suits = very bad idea.

As I said - cheating is one problem, honest mistakes are the other and the fact your opponent won't have access to your suit when he controls your minis is asking for some extra problems with balance.

Add to this entire discussion the fact that it's very hard to balance a game like this, that we're still going to see pretty serious adjustments to the masters we already have and the new masters in the queue... and suddenly introducing entire new faction with new suit and new mechanics looks rather hard.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Justin]

I don't see how new factions are necessary with the way outcasts are set up. Look at gremlins, they may as well be a faction.

And I definitely don't like any ideas that would require me to have a Malifaux specific deck and prevent me from just using a regular deck of cards.

[ispep]

Have you ever heard of TCGs/CCGs? There are all kinds of deck construction rules to follow for different types of events/formats. I would see altering a Malifaux deck to be no different logistically for event organizers. That said, I think it would add an interesting element to the metagame, but is completely unnecessary.

More importantly, we should discuss a Carnivale crew more. I've said it before and I'll say it again, best show ever, and having it implemented in a game like Malifaux would be awesome.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Have you ever heard of TCGs/CCGs? There are all kinds of deck construction rules to follow for different types of events/formats. I would see altering a Malifaux deck to be no different logistically for event organizers. That said, I think it would add an interesting element to the metagame, but is completely unnecessary.

More importantly, we should discuss a Carnivale crew more. I've said it before and I'll say it again, best show ever, and having it implemented in a game like Malifaux would be awesome.

i understand what you say about the deck contruction, but i feel that adding a fifth suit will overcomplicate and be too messy

And on note of the Carnivale, unless the're ressrictionists (where it could be realy wyrd, dancing undead pink elephant totem anyone :elefant:) NO

[Fool]

Because it is a card game. Cards are great, I love the mechanics, but there are ways to cheat with cards most people can't even imagine and once you organize a serious tournament with serious prizes (and ultimately there will be some), you need to guarantee people don't cheat.

The simplest way to do it is to open a factory-fresh deck of cards before every game and don't allow players to swap cards in any way whatsoever. After the game you gather the cards and distribute fresh decks. Cheaters may still try to cheat in other ways, but at least marked or tampered decks are out of the way.

Even if you don't go out of the way to provide new decks for every game and even if you don't really care that much about cheating because it is a small local and friendly tournament, introducing a mechanic where one player swaps a suit for another is just asking for trouble. What if he inadvertently messes something up and ends up with 56 cards? What do you do if someone pulls out a card of the suit he should've discarded? Cancel entire game and start anew? Doable in the game store (if there's no queue for the table), but not in a tournament.

New faction with the same suits = maybe doable.

New suits = very bad idea.

As I said - cheating is one problem, honest mistakes are the other and the fact your opponent won't have access to your suit when he controls your minis is asking for some extra problems with balance.

Add to this entire discussion the fact that it's very hard to balance a game like this, that we're still going to see pretty serious adjustments to the masters we already have and the new masters in the queue... and suddenly introducing entire new faction with new suit and new mechanics looks rather hard.

There are just as many ways to cheat with dice as there are ways to cheat with cards. There is no perfect way to stop this, but warmachine does not hand out dice before their tournies, nor does any other game. If a player suspects another of cheating in any other game, an offical is called over and they check the dice. Same could be done ith cards. If I am replacing any cards the onus is upon me to have my deck correct, if I mess that up at gen con, bad on me....and depending on the offical/opponent maybe DQ'ed. In that case you have to take personal responsibility for yourself and your deck.

Having a new deck for a tournament does not mean you cannot cheat with it. The only way to make sure that every deck is perfect is to hand out decks before the first game, then collect each deck after the game, AND have an officials check every deck before the next game. Repeat till the tourny ends. That will not happen.

What I expect to happen is your opponent can check your cards before the game. If at any point, someone questions your deck an official will come over and check it themselves. Samething that happens in dice games. So adding a suit or 4 does not add any problems in a tourny IMHO

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I expect the players at Gen Con to NOT accuse each other of cheating and then slap iron!

[Fool]

I expect the players at Gen Con to NOT accuse each other of cheating and then slap iron!

Also, For places like Gen Con it is few and far between finding players that are jerks. I have never seen anyone cheat personally. I did question one person, and check their dice, but that was in the late 80's. Never again have I had a problem with players cheating.

Also, I hear that the person they have running the games at Gen Con is 7 feet tall, flamming red hair, and has soulless eyes. Who wants to cross that?

[Sliver Chocobo]

Also, For places like Gen Con it is few and far between finding players that are jerks. I have never seen anyone cheat personally. I did question one person, and check their dice, but that was in the late 80's. Never again have I had a problem with players cheating.

Also, I hear that the person they have running the games at Gen Con is 7 feet tall, flamming red hair, and has soulless eyes. Who wants to cross that?

I heard he's the new neverborn master

[pancake ss]

A true gamer would not cheat, but then again some people i have played against took the fun right out of the game. Being hell bent on winning and nothing else. I play because the games open my mind to other worlds. And a relaxing evening gaming with a beer and mates, sons or the wife or who ever the apponent. Its what i enjoy that counts.

[GuySmiley]

I really can not get behind the extra suit. When Wyrd gets to the point in their success when they want to develop a RPG, video games, and ccg/lcg then hallelujah. However, until that point it is more about playing poker with fate. Each suit represents several aspects, like the four elements each can be represented in the type of person they are. Yes there is a fifth element as Luc Besson has taught us, but the classical elements really do cover it.

In the end if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[macgowan]

New suits would be impossible, unless four new factions were introduced. Even if they were, you would still have the standard "counts as" traditional suits so people can play with a normal deck of cards.

Much better to have anything new trick off current suits.

[Iron Man]

adding a new suit or new factions would be pointless as a game mechanic, and not needed story wise.

game wise the mechanics work very well, and you know what they say dont mess with what isnt broken. a new faction could be added, but what would be the difference between a whole new faction, or just a sub faction like ramos' steam fitters or somer teeths gremlins.

i think what people really want is just to have what is already there expanded, a few more masters, more differing options to add to the crews.

i did have 1 idea for a gambler, with a blackjack ability. basically a spell which targets an enemy at a medium distance. instead of using wp for the duel both players flip 2 cards, and use the values as in a game of blackjack. player can then 'hit me' starting with the defender, trying to get a higher score, but if anyone goes bust they automatically lose the duel. the winner takes the cards flipped into their hand, as well as their opponets cards until the end of the end phase, when they are given back to the loser to put into his discard pile. blackjack duels cant be cheated.

id like to see a poker mechanic spell as well but it would take too many cards.

[Sliver Chocobo]

What is people views of gargoyles (possible as constructs for Arcanist or neverborn)

[Sholto]

Toy Soldier - a Neverborn construct? A little drum and a tin hat and a big clockwork key sticking out his back. And tentacles.

Wyrd have hard-wired the number of Factions in the game by tying them to the suits (+1 for Outcasts), and can only go so far adding new Masters to each Faction, although there is certainly plenty of scope for new and imaginative masters (I like the Carnivale idea for Outcasts, for example).

Another way to add variety would be through expanding the totem range. New totems could allow the Masters to access models from other Factions, albeit at a cost similar to the Outcast hiring cost, and with other balances and benefits. Guild use Witchling Stalkers and Enslaved Nephilim, so why not go the whole hog and let them compel other creatures or constructs to fight for them?

Sholto

[Hatchethead]

Would it totally upset the fabric of the game to have two factions sharing a suit? I realize each suit is tied to a particular faction, or moreso a particular aspect of a specific faction. Each represents a source of magic with a Sphere of Influence: "Control, Deception, Defense, Speed" for Masks (for instance). So long as a new faction identifies with a certain suit thematically, and is different enough compared to the pre-existing faction, I could see there being at least two factions per suit.