A plea...

[Illustrange]

added a little disclaimer for those that dont know me longer,

I might voice things harsh in discussions, but never mean things attacking, insulting or personal, even if it may come across that way.. 3 seasons for this : my personality , this is the internet and body language and tone dont come across, and because english is not native tongue.

"I needed to separate this particular part out. In the last 5-10 years years this doesn't hold water imo. The hobby has been all about the 'game'. Why would you think the game should come first for? "

Might have voiced some things wrongly.

so Im trying it differently, Im not saying the hobby is all about the game, Im saying its two different hobbies, Im saying the GAME is all about the game.

yes you play with beautyfull miniatures (wich in the defence of the wonderfull sculptors are still beautifull with paint on them, or do you dont think so ?) and some people like to paint their miniatures, and other people dont. for those that dont the game is still enjoyable as a game (you say so yourself.. alot of people game with unpainted miniatures, so for them the hobby is the game and the beautifull miniatures, but not the painting.)

I think its an elitist and arrogant way of thinking to deny these people the right to enjoy the hobby the way they like to enjoy it, especially as the painting side of the hobby allready has alot of support in terms of competitions both for pros and amatheurs, painting classes onsite and tutorials online, forums (wyrd having begun as a more or less painters community.) etc. etc. painters have nothing to complain (nor do gamers-only currently, as tournaments currently DONT deny them to enjoy the game the way they enjoy it.)

I also dont understand what the big problem is to you ? are you annoyed to lose in a game when your miniatures are painted and the competitors are not ? doesnt that actually make you even more concerned for "winning only" than they are ?

again Im not necessarily saying the game is the important part and the rest is an extra (I voiced that differently I think.) Im saying when talking about game-tournaments.. the competitive side of the game.. in that case the other elements of the hobby are completely void, its all about the game then, just like with a painting competition somebody doesnt need to be a gamer. wich leads me to :

"The hobby isn't two sides though. The hobby is painting and playing. It is us who want there to be two sides."

nope, the hobby is two sides and only for some people these two sides join, alot of the painters here on wyrd, in fact alot of the constantly prizewinning painters in big competitions are no miniature gamers and alot of them dont care so much for the games, does that make them wrong ? equally, alot of people enjoy the game and beautifull miniatures only, and dont care for the painting, but do like to test their gaming skills in tournaments, are they wrong ? (and the part about if they wouldnt be painted you might just as well play with cardboard bits is crap.. games always have had a visual balance to it, to get more into the game, with miniature games these are miniatures, while alot of people like these to be painted (explaining PPP ranges relative success.) alot of them also can still enjoy it with just the metal miniatures.. just like games like star quest and hero quest were enjoyable without paint on them.)

dont get me wrong, as I said I myself am someone who mostly enjoys the painting/creative side of the hobby, I prefer boardgames over tabletopgames for the gamingfix, and when playing with miniatures I myself would only play with those I have painted, Im just voicing in defence of those who only like to game and on whom you should not oppress your own opinion of what the hobby is.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Illustrange
added a disclaimer

[nilus]

I am both a gamer and a painter, yet I personally cannot understand why people would invest money in beautifully sculpted figures for their game and leave them unpainted, I guess unfortunately these two sides of the hobby will never understand each other.

I can, its called 60 hour work weeks.

I like painted model, I like painting models(even if I am not awesome at it), but I like playing more and if I have a couple hours to paint or game I pick gaming.

[Morf]

In an Obama America, can't we all just get along?

OMG, so he won the elections!!!!

The ship with newspapers haven't made it yet here, we just got the September issues.

[elysium64]

I can, its called 60 hour work weeks.

I like painted model, I like painting models(even if I am not awesome at it), but I like playing more and if I have a couple hours to paint or game I pick gaming.

I also don't have enough spare time to do all the painting I would like, but I do get immense satisfaction out of seeing my painted miniatures on the table. I also find that the time spent painting them gives me an emotional attachment to that particular force.

I try to balance out painting and gaming time as I enjoy both. I feel I am trying to defend myself here, I am not taking a superior attitude because I like to play with painted miniatures its just that as stated earlier it is a UK thing and this purely gaming angle is new to me.

[Keltheos]

OMG, so he won the elections!!!!

The ship with newspapers haven't made it yet here, we just got the September issues.

I thought the daily rainbows and little puppies flying about on butterfly wings would have told you that by now, Morf.

[Chameleon]

I'm probably one of the very few here who doesn't game. I'm a girl and I look at the Wyrd minis and think 'oooh, they're pretty', and the back story is interesting in that it helps me to understand the character and how I might paint them. However, the truth is I don't care about gaming; I've never gamed, and wouldn't know how to. Bearing this in mind, it seems only fair that, given I can enter a painting comp without needing to game, isn't it only fair to let others enter a gaming comp who don't paint? Of course, if you want to paint your troops and make them look nice, then that's fine and you should get extra kudos. Maybe my lack of gaming experience means that I'm oversimplifying this a little, but it seems to make sense to me. So far as Wyrd is concerned, this is the only forum that I'm on, and I can safely say that it embraces all aspects of the hobby. I for one don't feel in any way like painting is neglected by Wyrd (in fact Wyrd encourages it more than most), and I think that the term 'gaming company' is probably a bit harsh and doesn't reflect the diversity of the hobby embraced by Wyrd.

[nilus]

I'm probably one of the very few here who doesn't game. I'm a girl and I look at the Wyrd minis and think 'oooh, they're pretty'

LOL, way to fight the stereotype there Chameleon . But the rest of your comment nailed the attitude perfectly. Painting is great and if you can play and paint awesome. But you shouldn't penalize those who don't and I don't feel people should look down on them for not doing it. But there should be things that still encourage it.

And for the record being a girl is no excuse not to play. But apperently, at least according to my wife, being a Mommy is. At least thats what she tells me, I think she might have just got tired of wiping the floor with my Khador army everytime we played.

[ScottRadom]

Painting is great, painted armies are great, painted armies in tournies are great. However just 'cause we love that side of the hobby and view it as a neccessity most likely does that mean we have to project that on our opponents? Why can't people prefer mini games vs. board games but have no real love of painting mini's? I personally love painting to pieces and find the thought of fielding unpainted stuff horrifiying but I don't think we should endeavor for Wyrd stuff or any other event to slap a bar down and say "you can only play if you have painted mini's". It sucks.

Then there are other things to consider. Take Malifaux and a 5-7 man "army". What if none of the figs are painted, but all have been prepped and cleaned for painting and the person is just starting to get to know his army before painting or even deciding IF they want to paint that force or perhaps another faction is for them? What about a 1/2 painted force? What about a really hasty three color very ugly looking force, do they get to play because they spent an hour painting 5-7 mini's?

I've run lots of tournies and helped organize a local game con. Painted mini's DEFO look better and capture the imagination of players and on lookers much more then unpainted or primed plastic or metal, but is it any more fair to tell them that they HAVE to spend time painting their stuff simply so other people can enjoy what they want to do a little more? It juts isn't all that practical or fair.

We just simply made sure that painting was a part of the score for all the mini games. Sometimes if the situation was that less then 1/2 the armies fo the entrants were painted we took the score out of the tournament and awarded a slightly bigger seperate prize for the best painted force.

[Chameleon]

LOL, way to fight the stereotype there Chameleon .

I do my best :fight:

It's true though, many girls enjoy gaming. I just haven't bothered because I've got too many pretty things to paint!

[EricJ]

Oh, now you're in trouble Chameleon. Casey has this goal to find ways to encourage more women to try out Malifaux...she thinks it's honestly a great game for those women who are interested in the hobby but never really played. Just letting you know in case you find a long survey about women and gaming one day in your PM box...don't say I didn't warn you!

[Chameleon]

Oh, now you're in trouble Chameleon. Casey has this goal to find ways to encourage more women to try out Malifaux...she thinks it's honestly a great game for those women who are interested in the hobby but never really played. Just letting you know in case you find a long survey about women and gaming one day in your PM box...don't say I didn't warn you!

Uh oh. I guess I should go and hide under my huge pile of yet-to-be-painted minis!!

[Neolis]

Ok this is where I would like to jump in.

Well, let's just be clear, the 'hobby' is the 'game' and 'painting'.

So it's 'lets cater to the Gamers only?'

It is the community who wants the divisions not the actual hobby. The hobby doesn't care less about the game, the hobby doesn't care less about the painting. The hobby cares about both equally. It is the people who make issues about one over the other.

The hobby does not exist with out the community to support it. If it was not for the people in to gaming, painting, diorama's, chatting about it on forums and and excited to show their friends about it we very well would all be scrap booking right now.

I came in to all this just painting after stressful days and only picked up the playing aspect when I figured I should have a reason to have 100+ toy soldiers lying around. I have also taken this to the point where I have begun regularly competing in painting competitions (also done more then my share of mini tournaments) I would exist very fine in just the painting realm but I also enjoy the meeting like minded fans as well. I never field unpainted armies unless I have some pretty extenuating circumstances. aka just starting out and picking out a force or list, or in wyrd's case just coming out. I play against a ton of unpainted armies and really don't mind it all. But have found the same stress to have stuff painted as a requirement drive my friend who was developing in to this right out. You know how I got him back in to this stuff? Playing uncharted seas with buisness cards and probably will never push him more then that unless he asks.

I see no reason why show casing each part Painting, Gaming and the whole enchilada in their own respective turn isn't some thing reasonable. May take some creativity but each person should get the right to focus on what they find to be fun. Their is so many reasons to get in this having one stone cold set of guide lines will never be possible. For now though I rather play with my friend who enjoys gaming and makes the process fun then the jerk with a full painted army who pulls out when the dice get rocky. I paint with the jerk every thusday night cause while he is a jerk, he is at least passionate and knowledgeable about painting. While each may be missing out on a side of the "hobby" I really find they get more out of it as they are enjoying what they find the best.

I find no issue with what PP did and find them giving an forum for each side of the deabte very good. Painters have their contest, Gamers have the various tournement formats, and the hella serious ones have Hardcore which challenges and rewards paitning and various ways of playing.

I spend 40+ hours painting a mini at times and don't see why I should make others spend the same amount of time or any. Sorry for this length and I hope it doesn't come off as prechy, ranty or rude. I just honestly don't see why this has to be this difficult to find middle ground and let people enjoy how they want.

I will not respond to the topic any more but please feel free to post your reply. If any one would like to continue to discuss this with me please feel free to give me a pm.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Neolis

[Scorpio]

Man. I'm gone for a day and this thread goes from zero to *seven* pages? Opinionated lot out there...

(I note that for this game, I told myself I wouldn't buy another gang until I painted the one I had. And it's been... tough. But I'm holding out, and am almost there.)

[TheBugKing]

@ Neolis You don't sound preachy and the opinion is appreciated.

If nothing else positive comes of this, this entire discussion has shown how mature and friendly the Wyrd forums are. I've seen this debate go on in other forums and it often devolves into a shouting and flaming match. We clearly have differing opinions but people are willing to keep the posts relevant to the topic. (With a few exceptions. sorry?)

I'd just like to say thanks to the community at large for being a really nice place to be.

[AoM]

Then there are other things to consider. Take Malifaux and a 5-7 man "army". What if none of the figs are painted, but all have been prepped and cleaned for painting and the person is just starting to get to know his army before painting or even deciding IF they want to paint that force or perhaps another faction is for them? What about a 1/2 painted force? What about a really hasty three color very ugly looking force, do they get to play because they spent an hour painting 5-7 mini's?

Barring someone from playing has not been discussed at all. We are definitely not going to go down that road. We're just trying to see if we can come up with a solid way to incorporate a painting incentive or tie-breaker into organized tournaments, leagues, etc.

@Scorpio - Get them law men painted, dude. I'm not playing you again until they're painted. j/k

[Timberhick]

While I already knew I was in the minority of this debate. But I didn' think it was going to be this bad.

Why is having a set standard so wrong for?

There already is a set standard, you use Wyrd miniatures, use their rule books, etc., but when it comes to a painting standard people melt?

The excuses don't cut it. If you have the time to come and play in a tournament for 10 hours or so, you have time to paint the models. If you have the time to play in pick up games at the local shop, you have time to paint. You may not like to paint, then pay someone who does.

There is nothing evil in having a higher standard for Wyrd tournaments.

It is the community itself who wants to facture the hobby. Gaming is not a separate hobby from painting, painting is not a separate hobby from gaming.

There is also a separate effect that goes on that most don't see or couldn't care less about. We average players. I am by no means a great painter nor am I a master tactician. Where is our accolades going to come from? I don't paint as well as Eric nor game as well as Kelthos, yet I have to compete against both so I get run over by Kelthos and painted over by Eric. Golly what fun for we average people.

The painting standard helps level the playing field for everyone.

[redstripe]

There is a group of individuals stateside that are into the game for the game sake alone. It is much more like chess for them. The hobby end of things is not considered. It is much more a question of who is the better tactician or strategist. (I.E. who plays their opponents better, deals with bad swings of luck etc.)

While there may be a group stateside that thinks this way, it isn't all of us. It wasn't until Warmachine that I even considered playing with an unpainted army. It was a big taboo to play Fantasy or 40k or L5R or any other game without painted minis. When we saw someone buy a kit at the store, we knew it would be a few months before we saw that on the tabletop.

Even after playing Warmachine, I wouldn't field troops that weren't painted. I'm not the greatest painter and my technique is certainly more about getting minis painted quickly than it is getting them painted to the high standards expressed in Wyrd's contests.

Part of putting minis down on a table for a game is being proud of the job of assembling them and painting them. I'm putting them on the table to show them off to my friends as much as I am to play a game with them. One of my fondest gaming memories was putting my kit-bashed Sisters of Battle Exorcist and heavily converted Inquisitor (on hovering Lecture Podium) to battle against my buddy's superunique Tyranid Hive Tyrant.

That game was not only a whole hell of a lot of fun, it was a spectacle. We played in the common room of the dorms (Engineering schools are very understanding about geek hobbies) and even attracted a crowd. We had a great time but part of that was because of the sense of satisfaction involved in debuting an army we had spent so much work on painstakingly painting and modelling.

As much as the tactics we used in the game, our armies themselves were a representation of our creativity. My blue and brown uniformed Guardsmen and my midnight blue armored Sisters told the story of Inquistor Madelynn Frost and the Mission of the Frigid Heart. They became characters because they were more than the metal and plastic that comprised them. My buddy's Tyranids were adapted for aerial attack, showing evidence of their genetic adaptation to the mountainous terrain of the planet Falmov, a lengthy campaign waged by the Tyrant of Hive Fleet Jotunn.

I could tell you a similar story about my Crane Clan army or my Nomad strike force.

Those battles, because there was a personal investment by the players in the armies they were playing, were character driven battles.

Forgive my little bout of nostalgia. I must really be getting old. I'm reminded of the boring war stories my grandfather told. His were about real battles, at least.

[Cacuin]

Wow this is a scary conversation. I mean wow, 7 pages of flaming opinions.

So here is my two cents.

I am a gamer. I enjoy the playing the tactical parts of the game. I then enjoy the fluff. Then the models. If I have time I will slap the paint on them. I am not a good painter, but I love seeing other peoples work. Also I love the social aspect of the game of talking tactics.

My local area of gamers are a mix of painter and gamers. Some are fantastic in both aspects of the hobby. I do know a few people who have had nothing but the "pewter colored" painted army for the entire span of their hobby life. I know if I told them they would have to paint to play in an event they would simply not show up. Hence no hardcore(wm) things in my area. I might hear a small grumble if a tie was given to the guy with the painted army, but most would understand that if they knew before the came out to the event. As for having someone win simply due to their painting would not go over at all!

When we first did our WM event out here we did have a painting prize for all of our tournaments. That kinda died out over time due to only one or two people ever winning that. It was always a majority vote on one model that was played in the event. Still after the 6th time a person wins people start grumbling about why we are always paying a guy to show up. So that stopped.

Would it work better in my local area now with wyrd? I dont know. I would hope so but I really dont know. I think the main answer should be, if your running the event board cast how your doing the painting aspect of the game and see how many people show up. If you don't get a lot, change the event till you get the max number of people. Thus you have your community.

For the big con events. I think there should be a mix. Some event where it's a pull it out of the box, glue it to the base and your good to go and others where it must be super good paint jobs.

Oh wait that's what WM does.....

[ScottRadom]

While I already knew I was in the minority of this debate. But I didn' think it was going to be this bad.

Why is having a set standard so wrong for?

There already is a set standard, you use Wyrd miniatures, use their rule books, etc., but when it comes to a painting standard people melt?

The excuses don't cut it. If you have the time to come and play in a tournament for 10 hours or so, you have time to paint the models. If you have the time to play in pick up games at the local shop, you have time to paint. You may not like to paint, then pay someone who does.

There is nothing evil in having a higher standard for Wyrd tournaments.

It is the community itself who wants to facture the hobby. Gaming is not a separate hobby from painting, painting is not a separate hobby from gaming.

There is also a separate effect that goes on that most don't see or couldn't care less about. We average players. I am by no means a great painter nor am I a master tactician. Where is our accolades going to come from? I don't paint as well as Eric nor game as well as Kelthos, yet I have to compete against both so I get run over by Kelthos and painted over by Eric. Golly what fun for we average people.

The painting standard helps level the playing field for everyone.

I agree painted mini's are nice. The GW style of tournies usually have a painting score incorporated into their round by round scores along with sportsmanship. Seems to work OK in that system.

And no painting and gaming are not married. You can paint and not game, you can game and not paint. Pay someone to paint your stuff? Sure, but if thats not a favorable option does that mean someone who cares way more about playing the game can't take part until they invest the time and money into painting? I don't think it's fair or desirable to chase these people away.

Where do the accolades come for the average as they say? Wel... hopefully they don't. If you're not a good gamer, why not get better? If you think you can improve your painting, improve that. If your self admittedly not as good as those around you in these area's then why should the system be formed to help you compete?

[Illustrange]

While I already knew I was in the minority of this debate. But I didn' think it was going to be this bad.

Why is having a set standard so wrong for?

there is a set standard, in a painting competition you only win of you are a good painter, in a gaming competition you only win if you are a good gamer, alot of people (including myself by the way.) are not to that level of either.

but the big point is, I am not into this to win, if I want to win in a game Id try out chess, or if there is anything like it, an Advance wars tournament (as Im undefeated in that one.)

but I dont care for the win

I enjoy the hobby the way I like it, coming up with a story behind my chosen characters (I create "groups" before I read rules.) painting them and maybe try them in a game, if I get butchered all the time so be it, if I never win a painting competition, I dont care, because this hobby is not about winning anything, but about enjoying yourself.

therefore I asked you, is it only entertaining for you if you can win ?

because thats how your opinions make it sound (even tough Im sure it only sounds that way.) for most people, it isnt about winning, this hobby is too expensive and time consuming to be all about winning only.

once again, Im not defending my "side" nor attacking your "side" this is not a pro or anti abortion discussion, its not that black and white.

we are all on the same side, the same hobby we enjoy, Im more a painter/collector than a gamer (in fact, apart from pulp city and malifaux I have not a single complete group or army for any game.) but Im not good enough to ever win a painting competition.. technically speaking, Im on your side.

however the group of people Im speaking in defence of.. people who like to game and like the miniatures (wich as I said are on theirself allready little pieces of art, even without paint.), the fluff, the art etc. but dont like to paint their miniatures (lack of time or they feel they cant do the quality miniatures justice.) are very likely not here on this forum (as this is a painters forum above all.)

but that doesnt make it right to march all over them with elitist toughts of them not participating in the "true" hobby.

The excuses don't cut it. If you have the time to come and play in a tournament for 10 hours or so, you have time to paint the models. If you have the time to play in pick up games at the local shop, you have time to paint. You may not like to paint, then pay someone who does.

I dont exactly see you putting on couterarguments to the "excuses" all you say is that its not true/doesnt cut it etc. but Id say, thats just your opinion.

not everyone shares that opinion, respect those that dont share your opinion, let them enjoy the hobby their way, as you enjoy your hobby your way (unless it is all about winning for you, then indeed its not very enjoyable.)

so again :

when considering only both sides are part of the hobby together :

if gamers are forced to paint, why shouldnt painters be forced to game as well ?

it would be only fair. that would alienate the best painters in this industry. or is that somehow different ?

if in fact the miniatures hobby is indeed all about painting first and gaming is a niche, why bother at all with making games ?

in fact Im even worse, I dont paint alot, I hardly game, Ive a growing collection of miniatures and I like to give feedback to fluff and ideas (often in the form of concept art.) here and there. should I just be banned from the hobby then ? because I dont paint and dont game enough ?

offcourse encouraging painting is a good thing, and wyrd definitely does that and has always been about that, but the same is true for the big ones too, they have painting competitions, tutorials in magazines (even with tips to do it quickly and easily.) and their own range of paints, so the painter both pro and amatheur are heavily supported, and people who are beginners are heavily motivated to get started on it, paint every now and then, but luckily, they dont HAVE to do it in order to enjoy miniatures and enjoy the games.

often people who game with miniatures will try out painting at one time or another, but if they are forced to do it straight away or go find something else to enjoy, you alienate people from even getting to the point where they want to try it out.

bottomline is, the way you voice your opinion on this matter (and again I think this is just how it sounds.) makes you sound bittered because you paint your miniatures, but never win a game from unpainted army, and never win in a painting competition and that has grown a bit of a grudge within you.

Id say, if that is the case, dont put the blame with others, but look to yourself, is this hobby really for you, can you enjoy this without ever winning anything?

because it is not about winning and it has never been.

[Illustrange]

Pay someone to paint your stuff? Sure, but if thats not a favorable option does that mean someone who cares way more about playing the game can't take part until they invest the time and money into painting? I don't think it's fair or desirable to chase these people away.

yes, (why cant I say things this short >_< ) also

wouldnt that technically make the painters who get paid to do this "wrong" as well ?

they paint and even get money for painting, but they dont game with what they paint ! damn them for ruining the hobby :twitch:

painting and gaming are two different things, its not a matter of us wanting it to be two different things, its a fact. saying that one cant excist/be enjoyable/be allowed without the other is wrong, saying that only painting can excist without gaming, but not vice versa is elitist.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Illustrange
removed moral discussion parts

[nilus]

The excuses don't cut it. If you have the time to come and play in a tournament for 10 hours or so, you have time to paint the models. If you have the time to play in pick up games at the local shop, you have time to paint. You may not like to paint, then pay someone who does.

:censored:!!!

[redstripe]

The excuses don't cut it. If you have the time to come and play in a tournament for 10 hours or so, you have time to paint the models. If you have the time to play in pick up games at the local shop, you have time to paint. You may not like to paint, then pay someone who does.

As much as I love seeing painted models and terrain on the tabletop, I'm glad you're not associated with Wyrd's tournament organizing.

People don't like being told what to believe or how to do something, especially in regards to personal choices like how to spend their free time. A hardline opinion like this will turn people away from a game. This is the same way evangelical christians can do their faith a disservice by attempting to force their beliefs on those around them.

This isn't homework. This isn't your income tax. I don't need to come up with excuses for why I didn't paint my miniatures because I don't answer to anyone about how I spend my free time. What you presume to do is dictate how I spend my money or how I spend my freetime. That may make your freetime more enjoyable for you, but no-one's going to tell me how I'm going to spend my friday nights.

I was really sympathizing with your point of view until you came out and said this. I love playing with painted minis but you can go float a boat for all I care.

This isn't a plea anymore, its a manifesto.

[AoM]

The 3 previous posts take care of that comment for me, so I'll just leave it at that. Forcing people to do one or the other is not the intent at all.

[nerdelemental]

Timberhick,

I think you've made your position pretty clear that you really want fully painted minis at every event you attend. I think it's been made equally clear that the majority of people already associated with the game - both those that have been collectors and painters of Wyrd miniatures before any talk of a game, and many that are in development of the game from writers of fluff to developers to alpha/beta testers have articulated their desire to reward painting, but never to mandate it.

However, similar to Privateer's Hardcore format, there might be a place for a special event focusing upon fully painted models on all tables.

At this point it's pretty clear that's the best you'll likely get. Expect no mandatory fully painted armies for organized play. Expect that there's an expectation to try. I have a prediction that even if no one in the future sees this cumbersome thread you'll still see many fully painted armies. There's a ton of people frantically trying to achieve that for this coming Gencon. Many are the people opposed to your plea - still trying to get fully painted.

Enjoy the game. Fully paint your models. I will, too. Most of us will. We agree that the game looks better that way. Occasionally I'll put pewter on the board - usually when I buy the model at the LGS and get it on the table within an hour.