Mandatory Civil Service or Military?

[Nathan Caroland]

So I brought it up in another thread but this is something that I've been grousing about for a couple of years now to be honest and I'm curious to the thoughts from other people out there. No flaming, not hating, not that we get that here which I'm grateful for, but I'm generally interested in your opinions, whether you are the leftest hippies or the right wing tyrants (betcha can't guess which I am!).

Seriously though, the more and more I look around, particularly the older that I get, I see nothing but 'jack asses' out there which are just running around doing nothing, bumming, can't take care of themselves or their family which they seem to be having younger and younger, or just basically don't have a sense of self worth or dedication to anything.

Now granted, this isn't everyone, there are the brilliant exceptions and then there are the dregs that everyone seems to focus on. Hell I see something like Katrina go on and the way everyone acted and just shake my head. You look at the difference between that and say the Tsunami and it is amazing.

I can't help myself from thinking that with a bit of civil service or military time that many folks would learn discipline, self worth, mental and physical stamina and in general, stop being useless bags of flesh which are essentially oxygen thieves. Granted, that's not going to cure everything, and we might even be training a better type of criminal in some cases, but hell, anything would be better IMO.

I'm a big, big, big military supporter. I might not always agree what has or is currently being done, but IMO, you always support the people in the military.

I'm curious to your thoughts on this and I'm certainly not going to be offended one way or another - got a thick skin here.

[Hinton]

I'm also a supporter of the military; it's the jerks in charge sitting safely behind their desks that I have a problem with. I tried to join the Army in my early 20's - mostly due to the fact that most of my family had been in the Army as well - but they wouldn't take me.

It seems that in this day and age, kids have less respect for anyone, including their elders. I see kids doing things that would have gotten me in a butt-load of trouble when I was their age and yet their parents do nothing to stop them. Granted, this comes from a bit of an overreaction to child abuse, but for the most part, kids just aren't disiplined these days.

So, while there would undoubtedly be a few that would just turn what they knows towards crime, I think a vast majority of them would learn about respect, caring for other human beings and, in general, a sense of duty and responsibility.

The drawback to that is that the jerks I mentioned previously seem to have no respect for the people in uniform. They have no problem sending kids to their deaths in some foreign nation, chasing ghosts and trying to force American ideals down the throats of people who, for the most, despise us.

It's a toss-up for me. If there was more responsibility at the top that wouldn't abuse the power that an incredibly large military represents, then sure, make it mandatory. Seeing how there is seems to a lack of responsibility at the top, then I would say no.

One way to possibly go about it would be to say: "Ok, you have to go into military training and serve 'x' amount of time, but you won't be going into any kind of combat. After that training time is over, you have the option to leave or you can fully enlist in the military branch of your choice."

[Mosch]

In Germany, every male 18 year old will have to serve some time in the military or do civil service. Of course nobody really wants to.

The only thing it really did for me was cost me one year I could have spent studying and of course some stories to tell. Also it reinforced my old opinion about genders being not equal - women do have more rights and chances than men, especially since they have to be prefered to men by law (when applying to a job, a woman gets the job if the man does not have a very large advantage over her one way or another) and do not lose a year as they are not slapped with military duty.

It was kinda fun, I admit it, and I have utmost respect for most of the Bundeswehr, but this system really sucks.

[Ritual]

We have mandatory (allthough that is becoming lesser and lesser the truth these days) military service at the age of 18 here too. And much like Mosch, that was pretty much a year (10 months actually) that was completely lost to me. I can't say I learned anything useful and the whole military environment gave assholes the opportunity of being even bigger assholes. From what I could tell military service didn't do much to civilise people with asocial behaviours. The ones I know were pretty much the same afterwards only now they had more muscles and could handle guns.

Now, I know the alternative to this, a professional army with hired soldiers, would most likely not be any better, but at least only those who are interested in soldiering would be subjected to that environment. For me, being in the military, was a mind-numbing and intellectually draining experience and I don't wish it upon anyone else. Now, I know some people have different views on this, but I just think that making the service mandatory will do as much harm to some as it will do good to others.

I can't say that I have any bigger respect for our army than I have for people in general. I've met decent folks in the military, but I've met plenty of assholes too. I don't disrespect them, but I don't expect anything more from them than I do from ordinary people.

[cdukino]

women do have more rights and chances than men, especially since they have to be prefered to men by law (when applying to a job, a woman gets the job if the man does not have a very large advantage over her one way or another) and do not lose a year as they are not slapped with military duty.

[wiccanpony]

I think the Government needs to bring back a form of Civil Works Administration (CWA) that did so much work during the Depression Era.

The Military is good too, but not for everyone ( like me.. I just can’t take orders blindly, I always have to mouth off with “Why”??) Also I hear that gang members are going into the military and bring back that Knowledge back into the gangs, scary!

The term Mandatory needs to be defined clearer ...... who would decide what was undesired behavior, for example would my hippy type attitude and Wiccan life style come under some other's idea of bad PC behavior .??(Bush and his posse thinks so)

[matty1001]

It may be because iv never had it, or known anybody who has had it (apart from those who have just said they have) but im completely against the idea. To me the line "We don't need no education" comes to mind. In the sense that we still need the 'education' (hence the double negative) but not forced down our throats where we have no individual choices.

Hell just get all the asbos/wrong doers under one banner give them a fascist rule, that to me is a step backward into Hitler or Mussolini territory, not forward into a free speaking world full of individuals personalitys.

But as I said this strong view may because I have never known mandatory service, the idea is completely alien to me.

[Skya]

I think most of the problems that you're talking about FF stem from a combination of factors that slapping a mandatory service requirement on top of is not going to fix. Our education system is designed to degrade our children into looking for a sense of self worth outside themselves. Other than almost entirely being a glorifed mandatory babysitting jail, it's about teaching kids to look for aproval from teacher as opposed to how to be self sufficent and gain satisfaction from learning itself. We also live in a society where children are rarely part of a community as a whole and to top it off often have two parents with jobs who just dont have the time to be with them and actually be parents even if they wanted to be. Trying to make the military do the job of parenting isnt going to work. While it does instill discipline in some people I've met just as many who it turns from assholes into assholes who now have a sense of power and entitlement. Not to mention that it will make just as many if not more people very bitter if you make it required.

Suffice to say I think our society doesnt so much need more of a sense of discipline as it needs a sense of community.

[Nathan Caroland]

Very interesting views, some I agree with, others I don't and a few that make me think of some other subjects (school for one) that I'd love to explore and get some ideas on. I'll come back to this when I have a chance to mull it over and not hotwire through it while I'm on a break at work.

Any others other than Mosch and Ritual who have had to do the mandatory service?

[Mosch]

Sorry for jumping at this like some sort of feminist... but had to put in the female voice here too.

Don't know if that's just Germany then. Here I can't say I noticed the woman having the advantage. I am 30... I don't find a job easier then a man, even if I'm equally qualified. Heck they fear i might go popping out babies or something... and take parental leave or something... No men are safer. The company I am in has the unofficial policy or not hiring woman my age for that reason as there were quite a few pregnancies. And while I can understand the company taking this into account even if by law they aren't exactly able to do this openly (discrimination, equal rights and all), it isn't really a female advantage now is it?

Also it's still common practice that a woman gets less payment for the exact same job as a man in quite a few cases. This I think sucks and if unfair no matter how to twist and turn it.

Top jobs (with often the biggest pay) are still mostly filled by men as well. I think this has mixed reasons. One is males being preffered (which is unfair) the other is more men actually wanting those jobs then females (which is fine in my book. I'm not wanting to be head of a company either.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for emancipation. Come join the army, you hormonally different people

The whole Gleichstellungsgesetz ("Same position law") in Germany is utter crap. Full stop. There is nothing left to discuss.

[lizcam]

I don't normally get involved with political discussions because I live next to a millitary base (Edwards AFB) and it's always a loaded topic. But I feel I have to bring up a bit different point of view here.

Just because you have military exreience does not make you less of an a$$ hole.

I have lived in 3 different types of areas in my life. My childhood was spent in a rural farming area (Wisconsin, the dairy state). I moved to California and lived for a great deal of time in Pasadena (home of the Rose Parade) which is essentially a college town (Cal Tech and over flow from USC and UCLA as well as the Art Institute and of course Pasadena City College). Then I moved up here and spent the last 14+ years here in a military town.

In my experience military areas have a larger % of drop outs, rejects and disenfranchised than certainly college towns. Not so sure about farming areas as I was pretty young then. And I think I know why. The military, while teaching you discepline and giving you an idea of sacrafice for the greater good, teaches you to react instead of think. This is helpful in certain circumstances, but by and large is not the way to maintain a peaceful community life.

College, on the other hand teaches you to think first (at least it does if you take it seriously). This can lead to depression when faced with the realities in life but it has also lead to some of the greatest changes in recent history. (I know I'm going back a bit for some of you) It was college kids who prompted to social reforms of the '60's.

I think the problem we have with our kids these days is not something either the army or a college can be blamed for or can correct. I feel that the reason kids are the way they are is because thier parents haven't taught them that there are conciquenses to actions. Parents are spending all of a childs young life trying to keep that child from harm. They don't fight in front of them, they don't let the kid know that the stove hurts by letting them get burnt. Society is set up to keep people safer than safe. This is okay, but it leads to kids thinking they're invincible.

Parents also don't hold kids accountable for what they say or so to people. It used to be that you were taught a basic politeness. You didn't say thing because it was RUDE. Rude behavior was punished in children. This ment that kids HAD to learn that they were not alone in the world. That their actions affect other people. Now kids are allowed to do and say anything they want and the parent does nothing about it. I'm not really into physical punishment, but banning spanking has made us afraid of our kids. We want our kids to be so full of self esteme that we come to thier defense when they do or say anything that is rude and someone calls them on it. IMO this is why the kids of today are they way they are. They are totally unprepared for adult life. Thier parents ruined them.

Please understand, I support the military (even if I never thought we should be where we are in the world right now). These are people who are willing to die for our country. That is nesseccary and should be rewarded. But I don't feel we should go down the path of "if they all went to war it would teach them" road. Yes, WWII did make men of boys, however I see enough Vietman Vets here in town to know that what you fight FOR is as important as fighting in the 1st place. Fighting for the WRONG cause can make you a bitter, hateful butt wipe who doesn't give a sh!% about anyone. I see them everyday. By the hundreds.

[Nathan Caroland]

I think most of the problems that you're talking about FF stem from a combination of factors that slapping a mandatory service requirement on top of is not going to fix. Our education system is designed to degrade our children into looking for a sense of self worth outside themselves. Other than almost entirely being a glorifed mandatory babysitting jail, it's about teaching kids to look for aproval from teacher as opposed to how to be self sufficent and gain satisfaction from learning itself. We also live in a society where children are rarely part of a community as a whole and to top it off often have two parents with jobs who just dont have the time to be with them and actually be parents even if they wanted to be. Trying to make the military do the job of parenting isnt going to work. While it does instill discipline in some people I've met just as many who it turns from assholes into assholes who now have a sense of power and entitlement. Not to mention that it will make just as many if not more people very bitter if you make it required.

Suffice to say I think our society doesnt so much need more of a sense of discipline as it needs a sense of community.

[/qoute]

Not a bad way to put it either and I have to say I agree with you about the schools and the way parenting is done these days, more so that it seems to take two incomes to make a living and parenting does suffer from it. One of the reasons why my wife quit her job last year so she could be a full time homemaker for all of us. Have to say that it has made a difference.

I do miss the paycheck though.

I suppose my idea about the Civil Service or Military is that I grew up a military brat for fourteen years and although I always thought it would be great when we were done with it through my fathers retirement, I soon found out that I missed the discipline and commradere as well as a structured life. Then again, I grew up in that enviroment and having an ex-drill sergeant for a father might have had something to do with shaping me (believe me, I didn't need discipline, I 'knew' better!). Thus the appeal for me for military service.

I don't know if it is just the media perception and availability, change in social structure or values or if people have just lost their minds, but it seems to me these days that everything just seems to be 'off'. I can't tell you how many times I've opened a newspaper or watched the news and hear about kids killing kids, rapes and murders, mutilations and other sickness that is out there and I wonder, has it always been there and just now with the media we just 'know' about it more widespread or as a society is it just getting worse?

[lauth81]

As a German male citizen, I had to do that Army/Civil Service thing. I choose the Civil Service (You can´t actually choose, you have to give reason why you don´t want to be drafted into the military and "they" accept your reasoning or don´t - normally they do, but it´s not a given).

My Civil Service lasted 15 months (If I would have joined the miltary it would have been only 12 months) and it was basically a waste of time with one exception, but that depended solely on the job I got there - I went to a special school for young people with heavy learning and mental impairments. I met people, I normally would have never met, but I don´t think I learned something important there.

I have deep troubles with military things in general ... and I don´t (want to) see the military as some kind of school for young people to learn decent behaviour. If German history (esp. 1870 - 1945) tells some lessons, then one is surely the role of the military in a society and it´s uselessness as a "school". Receiving orders and following them blindly is clearly not what I want from people. Teach people to think, respect them and teach them to respect others. Military doesn´t do that.

I know that "Supporting the Troops" is a staple of US-American political culture - even if the cause for going abroad is wrong. This is something I completely don´t get (which may in turn be a product of German political culture). After Nazi Germany invaded most of Europe, cause and support are tied to together firmly, rightly so, IMHO.

There´s no quick fix for the problem, because it´s a problem of the society. A 6 month drill camp doesn´t make anybody a better person - any study on those drill camps for young people shows their uselessness.

[Stupidcow]

If you ask me whether or not military training makes you a more disciplined person, I'll say some yes, some no. I think upbringing has alot to do with self discipline. I've seen lots of different people in the military, and only those who came in good, ends up good. I didn't really see any jackasses becoming any better after they have gone through military training.

My 2 years in military makes me appreciate what I have more and realise that it take all kinds of people to make the world go round and that we can never be surrounded by nice people.

[JonasD]

I chose Civil Service, too.

I have to say it really helped me a lot and I had a more than great trime doing so! We were about 40 "Civics" in this School for retarded children.

It was there I chose to become a teacher, so I found it helpful.

I do not think it is a waste of time. When coming out of school, most of the people do not really know

either what real life is like or what they want to do with it the rest of their life.

Especially in my studies I find it mostly to be the girls, who just have no clue of what's going on in the real woreld. They just came out of School (a well-caredsurrounding) into studies (also not to badly-cared).

I also had a couple of friends where I can just say that military service has put their head right baclk between their shoulders. One of them is doinga brilliant job at a bank now, after school I wouldn't have lent him an Euro.

I think the system is quite good. In my opinion, civil service for both sexes should be compulsory, with the possibility ofr choosing Military Service instead.

The Civil Service should last about a year. It's a good way of getting orientation in life.

And: Especially women should do it, too!

Just met too many female students who are still believing school WAS RL.

They never saw anything else.