The new hot combo and how to fix it

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think everyone agrees the Four Wind Punch build needs to change.

I think the question is whether Koji needs a hit or just the upgrade. 

[Doomikov]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is very doable to place the scheme markers such that they never score.

As for giving the scheme markers as a resource, the majority of the crews in the game can't abuse that.

A cursory search using several terms (scheme marker, target a marker, choose a marker, remove target, etc.) shows several models in each faction (except neverborn, but no one is crying about them) that is scheme markers or just markers for an ability. 

5 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Scheme markers = VP only in certain pools, and only if you don't play carefully. For things like Set the Trap, you have plenty of ways to reposition your models (being Four Winds Punch) one of them.
 

In a perfect world the opponent will not move their models or the scheme markers. Leaving you to do with them as you please. Obviously we do not live in such a world.

In the current GG there are 7 scheme that make use of scheme markers. There are 16 out of 28 schemes (not including holiday ones) in the All setting on the app that require scheme markers (unless I counted wrong). So more often than not scheme markers are going to play a part in scoring. Who knows what future GGs will bring as well. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Doomikov said:

In the current GG there are 7 scheme that make use of scheme markers. There are 16 out of 28 schemes (not including holiday ones) in the All setting on the app that require scheme markers (unless I counted wrong). So more often than not scheme markers are going to play a part in scoring. Who knows what future GGs will bring as well. 

Well, to go over the current options:

• Breakthrough- avoid placing them in deployment.
• Leave your mark - avoid placing them near the centrepoint if you can't remove them by turn 5.
• Sabotage - stay 2" away from terrain.
• Spread/load - that's a tricky one, but of course you can just drop them on the opponent's table half.
• Set the Trap - just don't set them within 2 inches of your models, although they can use reposition stuff.
• Secret meetup - don't set up in base contact with terrain.

When we've been doing practice runs of it (admittedly with Shenlong), we usually just note all the places you can't put them for the scheme pool and then never do that.

[Doomikov]

42 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

When we've been doing practice runs of it (admittedly with Shenlong), we usually just note all the places you can't put them for the scheme pool and then never do that.

Try doing it without Shen. He is the part of this combo that is broken. Outside of monks, Koji is not overpowered but still a super solid model. 

Things I would change are: 

1. Change FWP from Drop to place. 

2. Remove My Loyal Servant trigger from Takers Bane on Koji. Being able to heal the model he shoots for a low ram is lame. Or change trigger to a pulse but that affects a bunch of models. 

3. Change it so that the target places the scheme marker on Takers Bane. This is a compromise to the poor bandits that have no control. He can still shoot his own guys to place the marker but now enemies could place it out of his aura. 

Also I highly recommend trying him in other GG pools. A problem when balancing models is that most people only look at that model in the current GG. What might be powerful now might be less so in a year. 

[Azahul]

This keeps changing, so I may be behind the times here, but I didn't think My Loyal Servant could heal the target of the action? The "other model" in that instance disqualifies both the target and the model declaring the trigger. Do I have that wrong?

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Azahul said:

This keeps changing, so I may be behind the times here, but I didn't think My Loyal Servant could heal the target of the action? The "other model" in that instance disqualifies both the target and the model declaring the trigger. Do I have that wrong?

That's not an official Wyrd answer, but that's how the unnofficial Malifaux World Series plays it (that you can't use My Loyal Servant on the target).

There's no official answer to this question AFAIK.

[Azahul]

5 hours ago, Doomikov said:

 

3. Change it so that the target places the scheme marker on Takers Bane. This is a compromise to the poor bandits that have no control. He can still shoot his own guys to place the marker but now enemies could place it out of his aura.

Just to clarify this suggestion, is the idea here that Koji will never get to draw cards off of his own Protection Money aura with Taker's Bane because the opponent will always be able to place the markers out of line of sight (barring Size 1 or smaller targets)?

 

For what it's worth I think Bandits would much rather that they got the ability to place their markers rather than others join them in the clunky, combo-ruining existence that they currently endure

[Adran]

20 hours ago, Doomikov said:

 Scheme markers normally equate to VP. Yes, you can remove those scheme markers, but you are putting resources into removing them. Keep in mind that your opponent can also make use of them. You are giving a resource to the opponent for those cards. The cards you draw may or may not equate to winning a duel. Which in turn, may or may not equate to VP. 

Whilst scheme markers can equal VP, I think you are also missing the point that if I can drop enemy scheme markers, I can be denying VP as well. In most cases the scheme  marker needs to be in a fixed position. If I can drop a marker nearby, then you can't use the interact action to drop a marker in the right spot to score. 

In general most crews can't move markers and can't drop scheme markers without taking the interact action. The markers dropped by Takers bane could easily be adding a 2 or 3 action penalty to you being able to score (walk to marker, interact to remove, walk to the right spot). There are certainly crews and models that can take advantage of them, and will gain a much greater benefit from them, but in general a good player placing an enemy scheme marker is something that is either neutral or detrimental to the enemy in its own right, so not really a cost. (Even more so here than with drop it as here, the marker doesn't even need to be in base contact with the target)

2 hours ago, Azahul said:

This keeps changing, so I may be behind the times here, but I didn't think My Loyal Servant could heal the target of the action? The "other model" in that instance disqualifies both the target and the model declaring the trigger. Do I have that wrong?

My understanding of the current FAQ is that the phrase "another model..." would mean not the target of the action "...(not this model)... " means not the model resolving the text, so Koji in this case. So My loyal servant can't heal the target or Koji. 

2 hours ago, Azahul said:

For what it's worth I think Bandits would much rather that they got the ability to place their markers rather than others join them in the clunky, combo-ruining existence that they currently endure

But doesn't this in part justify why Bandits have a clunky way of doing it?  We give someone a non-clunky way to do it, and suddenly the world falls over. (I don't think any bandit power is as good as protection money (now they have lost that as an option), but the crew could be dropping more enemy scheme markers per turn than this even with 4 wind punch, this might be a problem).

[Azahul]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

But doesn't this in part justify why Bandits have a clunky way of doing it?  We give someone a non-clunky way to do it, and suddenly the world falls over. (I don't think any bandit power is as good as protection money (now they have lost that as an option), but the crew could be dropping more enemy scheme markers per turn than this even with 4 wind punch, this might be a problem).

Well, we had Protection Money as an option and it didn't cause a stir. More relevantly is that Bandits drop enemy markers by attacking enemies, not being able to do it in the backline and then stirring them around with four winds punch.

 

Most Bandits are Stat 5 without the trigger built in. It wasn't that crazy in its heydey even against players who didn't consider the Protection Money aura when placing the markers. Odds are Koji would be fine if his actions were all enemy only and the punch got fixed.

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Azahul said:

Well, we had Protection Money as an option and it didn't cause a stir.

 

Didn't it get nerfed? XD

[Azahul]

31 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Didn't it get nerfed? XD

People tell me it was a buff  A buff that means Parker1 no longer sees any table time, but I guess Wanted Criminal gets used by non-Parker players occasionally? Regardless, seems to have been an unintentional nerf to Parker.

[Davos]

I think OG Parker also just as heavily suffered from power creep, so choosing him, as much as I loved running him in GG0/1, doesn't make a ton of sense when for much less work I could run other masters and garner better results.

But ya, Protection Money in Parker didn't break anything, since you really only ever got the draw off reliably on Parker's activation. So an "optimal(?)" draw-turn involved Parker shooting 3 times while within 6 of the target(s), and either stoning/cheating for the (checks notes) not-built in trigger to force the marker drop.  And that was removed for....reasons? I guess?  I'm happy with Wanted Criminal now because its fantastic on ronin and i'm stupid enough to keep trying to make Viks viable, but ya, it wasn't breaking the game and they clearly intentionally removed it from Outcasts (now only factions with it are Thunders and Guild - on Steward).  
 

Overall though, oh well.  This will jsut force us all to figure out the most effective hyper-alpha we can drop into Thunders if we face them. If this gets changed, i dobut it'll be before 2024, so at at certain point vocalizing on the issue is just us venting.  I'm think sometime of Freikorps Hannah blasting bomb to disrupt it is the way I want to try and go about it, but now sure yet.  On the brightside, I'm sure I'll have tons of chances to learn to beat it, cause its gonna be played all the !#$%@# time

[Azahul]

16 minutes ago, Davos said:

I think OG Parker also just as heavily suffered from power creep, so choosing him, as much as I loved running him in GG0/1, doesn't make a ton of sense when for much less work I could run other masters and garner better results.

But ya, Protection Money in Parker didn't break anything, since you really only ever got the draw off reliably on Parker's activation. So an "optimal(?)" draw-turn involved Parker shooting 3 times while within 6 of the target(s), and either stoning/cheating for the (checks notes) not-built in trigger to force the marker drop.  And that was removed for....reasons? I guess?  I'm happy with Wanted Criminal now because its fantastic on ronin and i'm stupid enough to keep trying to make Viks viable, but ya, it wasn't breaking the game and they clearly intentionally removed it from Outcasts (now only factions with it are Thunders and Guild - on Steward).  
 

Overall though, oh well.  This will jsut force us all to figure out the most effective hyper-alpha we can drop into Thunders if we face them. If this gets changed, i dobut it'll be before 2024, so at at certain point vocalizing on the issue is just us venting.  I'm think sometime of Freikorps Hannah blasting bomb to disrupt it is the way I want to try and go about it, but now sure yet.  On the brightside, I'm sure I'll have tons of chances to learn to beat it, cause its gonna be played all the !#$%@# time

You could also bring Benny and mine rats for cards, though I never really had much luck getting that to work. These days you'd get to add Pearl to the mix for an extra card.

 

GG0-1 Parker was the Outcast version of Molly, in my view. Flipping on a positive and the trigger being After Resolving meant I could usually get three markers down each activation. Cashing Out plus Protection Money meant I could make that become Draw 6 cards, or Draw 3 and get 3 stones. Beyond that he was just a tank, throw him and his 14 wounds into combat with the opponent's biggest threat and sit there all game.

 

Losing Protection Money essentially removed that niche by outright halving his resource generation. Which is why he feels power crept to me, because having been booted from his niche his only recourse is to compete as a damage dealer in a faction that has had better damage dealers since 3e launched. He can't serve his old role of providing the resources to fuel any crew composition you might want.

[Adran]

If you were trying to break protection money you probably did it with dead outlaws and guilty to get 10 cards in a turn in your own deployment zone, it's just healing the guilty to keep it alive I'm unable to figure...