Possible areas of synergy for Philip and the Nanny errata.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I do play Philip occasionally as a scheme runner and don't think they are top priority for a buff compared to like Rafkin, but... buffs for Philip come up a lot so thought I'd share some thoughts on where those buffs could focus in terms of crew synergy.

Focus:

Funnily enough, the first area that they could focus on for a buff is the Focus condition. Philip and the Nanny can easily stack focus thanks to rabble risers. So this could be an area of synergy.

Offensively, a 2/4/5 damage track would of course go a long way.

Or you could do something interesting defensively. Something like +1df and wp for every focus for example would be very interesting. Or the ability to use focus to reduce damage.

Discard engines:

Philip could do some interesting combos if they were able to make friends discard efficiently.

Protected (Forgotten) would of course be extremely potent as it would allow 5 inch reposition or gaining focus from rabble risers.

Simplest would be a bonus action to make a friendly Forgotten discard a card with no TN (or a TN with interesting triggers). This would give incredible synergy with night terrors.

Could remove some triggers on back of card to make room for this new ability.

Buffs for the model itself:

Increasing tankiness, making Boring Conversation better are the usual areas of discussion,  and I agree these could be cool too.

Especially if Philip has a way to make night terrors discard to reposition the aura.

Dropping the Starting to Make Sense damage for focus aura could free up room on front of card.

Manipulative would ideally be one of the other pieces of tech mentioned above.

Indirect buff:

It should be noted that thanks to Rambling Man, buffs to other Forgotten can buff Philip.

So buffing the other models may be enough.

What are your reckons?

[James Dyson]

Manipulative -> Serene Countenance

Matches Molly 1, (who would punch a baby in a pram?) And solves the activation order issue.

Update melee damage to the 2/4/5 you mention, or;

Give him You Take the Wheel! From Vernon and Welles so he can discard a card after waking to interact.

This can combo with giving him  Fading (Loneliness) so in Molly 1 you can still use him to amp the fading synergy of the crew by allowing it both ways - he can give others fading or benefit from their fading.  If it's fading, he gets to do something.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Diceman87 said:

Give him You Take the Wheel! From Vernon and Welles so he can discard a card after waking to interact.

This would be so, so huge! By itself could fix him entirely xD

Discard to take an interact, get 5 inch push from night terror, then interact seems sweet xD

7 hours ago, Diceman87 said:

Manipulative -> Serene Countenance

Matches Molly 1, (who would punch a baby in a pram?) And solves the activation order issue.

The flavour of this doesn't work, I think. "Who would punch a baby in a pram" describes manipulative - nobody would punch the baby in the pram, til it takes an attack action. Now that it has shown that it is a threat, we would punch it.

7 hours ago, Diceman87 said:

This can combo with giving him  Fading (Loneliness) so in Molly 1 you can still use him to amp the fading synergy of the crew by allowing it both ways - he can give others fading or benefit from their fading.  If it's fading, he gets to do something.

Fading AND rambling man would be really interesting...

Although arguably that's master level fading so I'm not sure.

Would certainly be interesting to have Molly 1 use bonus action on Philip and a model across the map gets fading.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Philip looks good for a few of the GG3 strats. Deadly Pursuit seems like a staple for Covert Operation. While Ressers have it on up to two of any minions with Killer Instinct, Philip's ability to use SS's means he will likely place his Claim Marker. Chatty & Boring Conversation both look pretty important for stopping interacts in Carve a Path, I'm not really sure what else works.

[QTpierogi]

If we focus on manipulative+boring conversation anti-synergy problem, the best solution for it is changing "he's starting to make sense.." effect from damage to some annoying debuff aura, like it is already made on Alan Reid, Mr. Tannen and Shojo. Betrayal and Red in The Face is a good example of auras, that synergy with boring conversation effect(worth the note, that Mr Tannen's combination could be very annoying and powerful before Trained Ninja was nerfed). Because now Philip's anti-focus aura only synergies with manipulative and it's mostly not worth to trade a manipulative to boring conversation, because without it opponent least likely will concentrate before attacking Philip, if he doesn't have manipulative active.

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 minutes ago, QTpierogi said:

If we focus on manipulative+boring conversation anti-synergy problem, the best solution for it is changing "he's starting to make sense.." effect from damage to some annoying debuff aura, like it is already made on Alan Reid, Mr. Tannen and Shojo. Betrayal and Red in The Face is a good example of auras, that synergy with boring conversation effect(worth the note, that Mr Tannen's combination could be very annoying and powerful before Trained Ninja was nerfed). Because now Philip's anti-focus aura only synergies with manipulative and it's mostly not worth to trade a manipulative to boring conversation, because without it opponent least likely will concentrate before attacking Philip, if he doesn't have manipulative active.

It doesn't even really work well with manipulative, because people tend to pre-load focus early on if they're intending to use focus to kill manipulative models.

[QTpierogi]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It doesn't even really work well with manipulative, because people tend to pre-load focus early on if they're intending to use focus to kill manipulative models.

Yeah, but it is clearly was designed with thought as some counter to focus against his manipulative(even if in this edition focus usually pre-stacked in the early turns)

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, QTpierogi said:

Yeah, but it is clearly was designed with thought as some counter to focus against his manipulative(even if in this edition focus usually pre-stacked in the early turns)

 

Yeah, and with Molly.

The whole crew is designed as a squishy bubble that has control elements that sort of negate how squishy they are (in melee at least). But... Just doesn't quite come together xD

[QTpierogi]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, and with Molly.

The whole crew is designed as a squishy bubble that has control elements that sort of negate how squishy they are (in melee at least). But... Just doesn't quite come together xD

It's a bit hard calling forgotten a bubble crew, when to stay together only want.. Molly, Philip and Machine? Even Philip is pretty mobile with deadly pursuit and his push trigger. So they all are in a weird spot, when some models have some auras to bubble(Philip and night terrors), but at the same time different mobility tools to spread around, and also there are marshal and rabble risers, who doesn't have neither of these

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, QTpierogi said:

It's a bit hard calling forgotten a bubble crew, when to stay together only want.. Molly, Philip and Machine? Even Philip is pretty mobile with deadly pursuit and his push trigger. So they all are in a weird spot, when some models have some auras to bubble(Philip and night terrors), but at the same time different mobility tools to spread around, and also there are marshal and rabble risers, who doesn't have neither of these

Well, Molly, Philip, Rabble Risers, and Marshal sorta all want to be near each other for synergies.

And then Archie, Crooligans, Night Terrors are meant to run off and scheme.

But turns out the only thing the crew is good at is scheme running, to the point that even Philip ends up better on scheme running duty xD

[Korrok]

I'm still a fan of replacing manipulative with first to speak. Still makes sense themes wise but synergies with setting up boring conversation early. 

[Arlos896]

How about something like Can't Concentrate, enemy models that activate within aura 6 end their focus condition. This replaces he's starting to make sense. A way of handling his issue of manipulative 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Arlos896 said:

How about something like Can't Concentrate, enemy models that activate within aura 6 lend their focus condition. This replaces he's starting to make sense. A way of handling his issue of manipulative 

That'd be pretty huge, or even just a stronger version of the Enslaved Spirit aura (or Hildegard if you wanted to address shooting as well).

At that point you arguably wouldn't even need boring conversation a lot of the time xD

[OracleToronto]

On 7/13/2022 at 6:11 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

On 7/13/2022 at 10:40 AM, Diceman87 said:

Manipulative -> Serene Countenance

Matches Molly 1, (who would punch a baby in a pram?) And solves the activation order issue.

The flavour of this doesn't work, I think. "Who would punch a baby in a pram" describes manipulative - nobody would punch the baby in the pram, til it takes an attack action. Now that it has shown that it is a threat, we would punch it.

I actually was thinking remove manipulative and replace it with Face in The Crowd and Disguised. Keeps the model safer at range (as they will almost always be near other models due to their copying Fading abilities) and a woman pushing a baby cariage doesn't seem like much of a threat until you get close. 

 

[ShinChan]

On 7/13/2022 at 3:29 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I do play Philip occasionally as a scheme runner and don't think they are top priority for a buff compared to like Rafkin, but... buffs for Philip come up a lot so thought I'd share some thoughts on where those buffs could focus in terms of crew synergy.

Focus:

Funnily enough, the first area that they could focus on for a buff is the Focus condition. Philip and the Nanny can easily stack focus thanks to rabble risers. So this could be an area of synergy.

Offensively, a 2/4/5 damage track would of course go a long way.

More than a better damage track, I would rather having Stat 6, so at least you can "sort-of-guarantee" a hit if you have a high card in hand.

Or you could do something interesting defensively. Something like +1df and wp for every focus for example would be very interesting. Or the ability to use focus to reduce damage.

Discard engines:

Philip could do some interesting combos if they were able to make friends discard efficiently.

Protected (Forgotten) would of course be extremely potent as it would allow 5 inch reposition or gaining focus from rabble risers.

Simplest would be a bonus action to make a friendly Forgotten discard a card with no TN (or a TN with interesting triggers). This would give incredible synergy with night terrors.

No please.  The crew already has a lot of discard mechanics. So having just a discard for the sake of discards is 1st inefficient and 2nd annoying. If they're gonna have a discard mechanic, it could perfectly be a fading that allows them to copy someone else's fading within 6". Then just give P&N a printed  trigger for "Lie Down and Nap" which fits perfectly for an undead head that is trying to pass as a baby.

Could remove some triggers on back of card to make room for this new ability.

Buffs for the model itself:

Increasing tankiness, making Boring Conversation better are the usual areas of discussion,  and I agree these could be cool too.

Especially if Philip has a way to make night terrors discard to reposition the aura.

Dropping the Starting to Make Sense damage for focus aura could free up room on front of card.

That aura was useless when Focus was extra powerful, is even worse now.  I think it can just go away and nobody would notice

Manipulative would ideally be one of the other pieces of tech mentioned above.

Indirect buff:

It should be noted that thanks to Rambling Man, buffs to other Forgotten can buff Philip.

So buffing the other models may be enough.

What are your reckons?

The only other models in Keyword I would like to see buffed are the Noxius Neph, which doesn't feel at all worth its cost and the Forgotten Marshall having a Fading.

Df 5 and Disguised instead of Manipulative would definitely go a long way.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Stat 6 is nice and all, but 80% of the models in the game have Stat 5 or less df. I think it is workable if it isn't the only tool for AP.

Interesting that you say the crew has enough discard mechanics, but how easy is it to get a Night Terror to discard out of activation?

Off the top of my head, mainly just Molly and Noxious.

So not many tools to abuse the philip/night terror fading combo.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Wait. Wait! WAIT!!!!

You know what would be WILD?

If another model could generate the Gorgon's Influence instead of Molly. It would really unlock her gameplay, allowing her to actually use her attacks effectively without screwing over the rest of her crew.

Giving Philip an ability like:

Philip's Purpose: At the start of this model's activation, if a friendly Molly has not resolved The Gorgon's Influence ability this turn, this model may resolve that ability. If it does so, friendly Molly models may not resolve the ability this turn. Friendly Molly models may choose not to resolve their Gorgon's Influence ability when activating.

 

Only problem is it makes Molly 1's crew suddenly click and start to work really effectively, but doesn't really address Molly 2

Also as written, it would allow using the ability with Molly 2 which is not right...

WHAT IF WHAT WHAT IF????

Philip's Purpose: At the start of each turn, a friendly Molly may lose one of their abilities until end of turn. If they do so, treat this model as having that ability until end of turn.

FUCK YES THIS WOULD BE SO GOOD!!!!

What do you think? Am I on a sugar high from excessive cookie consumption again?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Haha, I still think about this sometimes with wishful thinking 😂

[Maniacal_cackle]

One sad I have about Philip is I'm not sure he's an appropriate buff for competitive play. I'm not sure buffing Philip will make the keyword competitive, particularly in the current environment...

But if the goal is to give a boost to some of the weaker keywords so they at least see some table time, I still think this would be great!