Changing Targets

[DeadManTalking]

I do not understand the ruling on abilities that change the target of an attack such as Take The Hit. Every bit of the phrasing of all abilities involved would make you assume that things like Terrifying, or Vengance, or any other defensive abilities that trigger when targeted by an attack would also be triggered here by the new target. So say I have a Gwisin with Grave Spirits Touch standing next to Kirai and my opponent declares an attack against Kirai. I declare the use of Take The Hit by the Gwisin and discard a card. As the new target of the attack why does the Terrifying from GST and subsequent Vengeance damage not trigger? Can anyone explain why this rules decision was made? What balance or brokenness is this fixing because overall it just a very confusing and unnatural ruling to me.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

For Terrifying: the ability effect is only generated when the opponent declares a model as the target. Any target change after target declaration is not the opponent model targeting a model. This decision was made to stop 2x Terrifying from going off, since you could resolve the original model's Terrifying and then use TTH to switch targets to generate a second Terrifying. Perfectly reasonable to FAQ the interaction.

For Vengeance: extremely gray area. A majority play it the same as any ability generated when a model declares a target. However, it is generated after action resolution, introducing the gray area. This one couldn't go off twice like Terrifying, so it is still debatable on if it falls into the category of abilities covered by the FAQ. Really depends on if you view "targeted" as passively or actively. I won't go into further debate on right/wrong here, there was a long enough thread on it a while back.

Edit -- Relevant FAQ entry:

Quote

12. If a model has multiple Abilities that resolve after it is targeted (such as Terrifying (X), Protected (X), or another model’s Take the Hit Ability) can it resolve more than one?

a) Yes. When a model is targeted all effects that would resolve are generated at the same time and can be resolved in any order (as per Simultaneous Effects on Pg 34). However, some effects may change the target of the Action, in which case that new model is not targeted and as such those effects aren’t generated a second time. Additionally, abilities such as Manipulative that affect Actions that target “this model” only apply to those Actions that are still targeting that model. For example, if a model with Take the Hit changes the target of an Action to itself, it would not benefit from any of the initial target’s Abilities such as Manipulative that require the Action to target “this model”, nor could it benefit from more of its own abilities that resolve when it is targeted (such as Terrifying).

Note: Manipulative, an effect that resolves when the target of an action, resolves in a step after declaring targets, and as such still gets generated on the new model. The big issue from keeping Vengeance from resolving similarly is that Vengeance uses "targeted", and the FAQ specifically references "targeted" effects not being generated on the new model. So, it has a foot in both the can/can't camps.

[DeadManTalking]

So just to clarify. If I target a model with Terrifying, I take the Terrifying check, then my opponent declares TTH and switches the attack to a new model. The new model cannot benefit from any of its defensive abilities as it technically isn't the target of the attack even though the ability says it's the target of the attack. Is this correct?

[Azahul]

4 minutes ago, DeadManTalking said:

So just to clarify. If I target a model with Terrifying, I take the Terrifying check, then my opponent declares TTH and switches the attack to a new model. The new model cannot benefit from any of its defensive abilities as it technically isn't the target of the attack even though the ability says it's the target of the attack. Is this correct?

Sounds right. The FAQ is quite clear that the effects are generated when you target the initial model, but aren't generated when you change the target.

[DeadManTalking]

Ok thanks for clarification, I know you said you aren't going to debate right or wrongness but this ruling is so messed up. It's such an easy fix as well. I declare your model as the target of my attack. You must declare if you are using TTH or some other target changing ability. We now begin the duels as if I had targeted that model all along, so any defensive abilities you have go off as well as any offensive abilities I have.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Terrifying and TTH are generated as simultaneous effects prior to any duels, the owner (opponent for both in this case) gets to choose resolution order. The opponent could choose to change targets with TTH before resolving Terrifying, though that would make Terrifying fail to resolve. The new target can't benefit from any of the original target's defensive abilities, and the new target is unable to generate effects from being targeted (like Terrifying and TTH).

Also, the new target still gains some defensive abilities, Manipulative or Serene Countenance for example. As long as the defensive abilities do not generate/resolve during target declaration, the new model will still benefit from effects that require being the target of an action (widely accepted exception Vengeance because it uses "targeted"). 

[Adran]

My explanation is that the verb target and the noun target are treated differently. If you used the synonyms "select" and "defender", then it is clearer. Take the hit would change the "defender" but they wouldn't be the "selected" model. Things like terrifying and vengeance work on the "selected" model.

 

As to why, this is my personal belief as to why with the history as I remember it, but I haven't checked recently so I may be wrong on somethings. 

This FAQ is just how wyrd always expected it to play out. It was talked about after initial release, but it was rare to be able to change the target, and even rarer to have a when targeted ability on that model. The most worried about interactions was models making multiple terrifying tests and they gave an FAQ answer to say that does not work. But the answer wasn't clear enough for some once they added a model that had both types of abilities so we have this much more detailed answer to explain how it works. 

[solkan]

I'm sure everyone can imagine the lovely situation that would have otherwise occurred if a model had Protected (to let it change the target of a Charge attack) and a nearby Disguised model to try to foist the attack onto.  It doesn't do anyone any good if either the attack just vanishes (that's too good for the defender) or you're not allowed to pass the attack off (that's too good for the attacker).

So that's probably part of the reasoning for the FAQ.

 

[santaclaws01]

9 hours ago, solkan said:

I'm sure everyone can imagine the lovely situation that would have otherwise occurred if a model had Protected (to let it change the target of a Charge attack) and a nearby Disguised model to try to foist the attack onto.  It doesn't do anyone any good if either the attack just vanishes (that's too good for the defender) or you're not allowed to pass the attack off (that's too good for the attacker).

So that's probably part of the reasoning for the FAQ.

 

For that example you're forgetting that protected(and TTH) ignore targeting restrictions.