English Ivan double agent upgrade

[Erik1978]

How did the Turncoat upgrade slip through the beta?

Unless I'm missing something?

Twice per game he can auto obey an enemy minion or enforcer regardless of range and LoS, with  on all flips?

That sounds... fun. 🤮

[Maniacal_cackle]

For the question of 'how did something from Malifaux Burns slip through the beta', the answer is probably one of these two:

1. They designed 54 new masters at the same time. Some stuff was bound to slip through the cracks.
2. It isn't as strong as it looks.

For the unresisted obey, it is one of the most powerful things he can do... And he can only do it twice per game and you can play around it by spreading out, and otherwise not leaving yourself vulnerable to obey effects.

Is there a particular crew you're playing with that struggles with Ivan2?

[Adran]

You have to remember that part of Double agents power is in the 2 upgrade cards. 

so he has to pick 2 (duplicates are allowed) of the following

-A free "obey" with "focus on the obeyee",  which has to be done at the start of the turn. So you get a full turn to undo what ever was done before scoring happens. 

- A series of 3 damage pulses on a DF 14 duel to resist. 

- Free deva

 

All are good. Its likely the best effect of the turncoat is an enforcer charging someone on your side, as its not really a good way to score/deny points happening so early on in the turn. That's tough, but there are things you can do to minimise it. (It might not always be worth it because what it costs you to minimise ends up more than it costs you to let it happen, but if you have a strong beater then try and leave them engaged with the enemy, and not with you, so they can't attack you, or leave them in space where they are not able to charge you. )

 

EDIT - As pointed out further down, since its during the start phase, you can't do any once per activation actions, like Charge. So its less good than I said. 

[Da Git]

Is it good... yeah, it is... Is it better than a free Daeva? ehhh... maybe?

Like others said it happens at the start of the turn. Lets say your going for damage and do it on something like a Mature to charge backwards. Great! But you're still probably going to need resources to land that sweet 6dg unless your opponent has nicely stacked Focus for you last turn, especially if you want a specific trigger (odds are you'll hit, but be on straight for dg, but there's still decent odds you lose the attack flip, even with the Stat 6+ or need to cheat a suit). So there's card pressure there, too.

And really, Zoraida 1 can do this multiple times a turn (to different models) with her 2-action Obey trigger. This can also be done last activation to score or deny rather than start of turn.

Compare this hand drain to the other two upgrades hand surplus (by draining the opponent's hand)

A free Daeva might be more of a speed bump, if it hits, it hits. Great but it's there to hold up a piece and take resources to kill (both actions and cards).

The bombs entirely put hand pressure on your opponent.

[Erik1978]

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Is there a particular crew you're playing with that struggles with Ivan2?

Not yet. Well I suppose that's the upside: He isn't as bongers as original Ivan with the 3 weak damage + staggered. 😃

And yes, I know stuff is bound to slip through with such a huge beta, like Bayou in the M3E beta which were tested the least. I just thought they tried to eliminate "no resistance to this, just take it!" Which I'm all for doing.

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And really, Zoraida 1 can do this multiple times a turn (to different models) with her 2-action Obey trigger. This can also be done last activation to score or deny rather than start of turn.

With no flips, unlimited range, and no LoS?

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

And yes, I know stuff is bound to slip through with such a huge beta, like Bayou in the M3E beta which were tested the least. I just thought they tried to eliminate "no resistance to this, just take it!" Which I'm all for doing.

I don't know of any formal wyrd statement that they are trying to eliminate "no resistance" . I can imagine they are trying to reduce its prevalence, but there are things in the game that I can do to you that you can't resist. (In addition to things like "we are legion" damage, there is movement with things like Union Buster, and moving markers onto models lets me make you suffer the hazardous effect without any chance to avoid it, or even attaching the voodoo upgrade to a model, or Tara/Candy forcing you to pass/change an activation. )

[Jinn]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:32 PM, Da Git said:

Like others said it happens at the start of the turn. Lets say your going for damage and do it on something like a Mature to charge backwards. Great! But you're still probably going to need resources to land that sweet 6dg unless your opponent has nicely stacked Focus for you last turn, especially if you want a specific trigger (odds are you'll hit, but be on straight for dg, but there's still decent odds you lose the attack flip, even with the Stat 6+ or need to cheat a suit).

That's a good example as well because as the obey happens during the Start Phase you cannot declare any actions with the Once Per Activation restriction, so no Shove Aside.

The Daeva summon upgrade doesn't get Made to Kill either.

[Erik1978]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:48 PM, Adran said:

I don't know of any formal wyrd statement that they are trying to eliminate "no resistance" . I can imagine they are trying to reduce its prevalence, but there are things in the game that I can do to you that you can't resist. (In addition to things like "we are legion" damage, there is movement with things like Union Buster, and moving markers onto models lets me make you suffer the hazardous effect without any chance to avoid it, or even attaching the voodoo upgrade to a model, or Tara/Candy forcing you to pass/change an activation. )

We are Legion doesn't damage opponents as much as it used to with the new errata. But no, there have been no official "lets get rid of that mechanic" but more a lot of people agreeing that it's less fun if Misaki stuns half your crew (incl. your master) without you being able to prevent it.

Didn't realize the start phase part of this to be honest. That helps a little.